Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 932 Series (156, GTV, Spider, 147, GT, and 166) => Topic started by: 75guygtvgirl on October 17, 2018, 10:05:20 AM

Title: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 17, 2018, 10:05:20 AM
Hi guys just wondering if anyone on here has had any experience turbocharging a 2.0 ts? One of my 156ís has blown the head gasket and the previous owner neglected the car terribly. Iím going to do a full rebuild but I would like a bit more power so Iím considering something like a wrx turbo running low boost. Just to get it around the 150kw/260nm mark. The gearbox and clutch have been rebuilt so I donít think theyíll be a problem and Iím pretty sure European cv,s are pretty strong too. My only concern is whether or not the little twin spark can cope with the added stress of more power?
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 17, 2018, 11:06:20 AM
Thereís a South African bloke who did his, canít remember the name [Edit: corriedw]. There was some chatter on AO about it, from memory. He had peripheral niggles, but was running in a harsher climate than you would be.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 17, 2018, 11:30:28 AM
Has been done to death in the UK/Eu

The exhaust manifold (turbo mount) from a 1.9JTD is a direct bolt on fit. Choose our turbo/ECU etc from there.  CVs and gearboxes/diffs are made of chocolate - so expect future issues

There are millions of dead 1.9JTD in the Uk where it outsold any other engine type at the time so you can probably get everything you need for a dollar if you search hard enough.   Have a squiz in the alfaownerUK website - again there are lots of build threads here, although mostly itís people working the derv to silly power/torques.

1.9JTD manifolds are available in Aust too of course, just not sure how many would be sitting in graveyards in Tas.

I need to get back there one day, very special place
Good luck
Would love to follow your progress, or research even in here

From memory somebody up this way (Brisbane) did a 156 turbo using this method also.. car was black .. google may find it for you
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 17, 2018, 11:38:53 AM
Iím hoping the fact that I only want a slight increase in power will help keep the driveline happy. Thanks for your help
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 17, 2018, 12:34:39 PM
You might be pleasantly surprised with how peppy a good rebuild without turbo, can be. Even if you just do rings and bearings ďwhile youíre at itĒ.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 17, 2018, 03:42:48 PM
Yeah I definitely plan to do bearings and rings. If I donít turbo it Iíll probably shave the head a bit and do header and exhaust
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 17, 2018, 04:12:44 PM
I probably wouldnít have bothered with the rebuild if I hadnít just spent $2500 on timing belt and coil packs. Plus the little bugger is so much fun!!
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 17, 2018, 04:44:09 PM
Itís not silver is it? Saw a ďnew to meĒ 156 recently near University Way.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 17, 2018, 04:50:33 PM
No both ours are fantasia blue. We have a twin spark manual and a v6 auto
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: johnl on October 19, 2018, 03:17:45 PM
Is the standard compression ratio (10/1) a bit high for safe supercharging? Might not be an issue if boost is kept on the low side? Or would you be planning on lowering the CR?

Regards,
John.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: julianB on October 19, 2018, 03:47:42 PM
Keep the boost to 15 psi max and the compression shouldnít be an issue if youíre using an aftermarket ECU.

There was an 8v TS turbo into a GTV in Perth years ago and it made 150rwkw and a 75 TS turbo in Sydney that made the same and they were both on stock pistons.

It should pull pretty hard!
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: johnl on October 19, 2018, 04:21:33 PM
So I'll assume it's doable without too much risk (though 15psi on a 10/1 CR still sounds ambitious to me...). I'd also assume that the electronic ands tuning side of the project would likely be as costly as the physical components, not to mention the 'recognised signatory' report / approval etc...

Regards,
John.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: bonno on October 19, 2018, 05:29:27 PM
Hi 75guygtvgirl
Before you commit on a turbo conversion, have a look at the following summarised video to give you an appreciation of what is involved, even though it covers a Mazda MX5. Additionally check with your insurer if they will cover your car, even if the modification is engineered. The full set of videos totalling 4 is quite good and covers the conversion in some detail and associated mods to handle double the power.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsfR_B5udeA
cheers
bonno

An additional video to the series covers the additional mods to handle the extra power (not to be overlooked). “Preparing the Mazda for battle” 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXPtUBfeoAk
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 19, 2018, 07:24:22 PM
Iíll check them out 🙂 like I say Iím only going for a pretty slight increase in power and torque so I would think the driveline would hold up. Iím only chasing an extra 30kw and 60nm.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 19, 2018, 07:27:19 PM
I just assumed the turbo route would be the most cost effective and reliable way to achieve the power gains. A highly strung high compression na engine would be awful on the street
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: poohbah on October 19, 2018, 08:11:17 PM
Cheapest way to get an extra 30KW would be to swap your car for a 2.5L V6 model.  :D

(But I have a vague recollection we may have discussed this before...?)
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 20, 2018, 01:19:56 PM
Iíve got a v6 too 🙂
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: bazzbazz on October 20, 2018, 03:55:37 PM
Turbo the V6 !!!  ;)
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 20, 2018, 04:19:00 PM
I havenít researched that but I can only imagine the cost and the issues that would arise
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 20, 2018, 11:24:59 PM
Quote from: ďpoohbahĒ
Cheapest way to get an extra 30KW would be to swap your car for a 2.5L V6 model.
The cheapest way is to simply lie about the power output by +30kW. Work up a really convincing spiel, practice it on friends to start with and then youíll be able to dupe complete strangers.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 21, 2018, 09:01:49 AM
Iím just so confused because Iím not sure if itís even worth it. Maybe I should be throwing the 4-6k at the v6 🤷🏻‍♂️🤔
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 21, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
I suggest an incomplete set of principles to look at:

1. Only destruction gets cheaper if you put it off.
2. Nothing you do to a 156 is likely to add significant value.
3. Some things if done to a 156 may significantly reduce its value.
4. What will Shannons say (WWSS)?
5. Will your input actually make you enjoy the car more?
6. Can you really afford it, or is a big shed smarter spending?
7. Do you have free space, the time and patience if youíre realistic about such projects?
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: sportiva on October 21, 2018, 12:34:56 PM
With more power the diff will the first thing to break so include a limited slip diff in your costings
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: Colin Edwards on October 22, 2018, 01:24:30 PM
An alternative worth considering is developing the car without increasing engine output.

Given the FWD arangement, any weight reduction in the front half of the car will be a bonus. 
Lithium battery? do you need aircon?, carbon fibre bonnet? properly engineered aluminium front bumper supports, titanium fixings..........!
All the above could cost less than a reliable and drivable turbo install.  Throw in a set of high spec tires that provide grip AND reduced rolling resistance and could end up with a 10% quicker car that will cost less to run!
Serious weight reduction is a challenge, but however can be realitively inexpensive.  Just need to take a long hard look at the car!!
Look for tires with a high EC 1222/2009 rating.  "A" rated tires are the most efficient.  I fitted A rated tires to my 159 3.2 and easily resulted in a 5% reduction in fuel consumption.  If the car is 5% more efficient, it can do 5% more work for the same input.  Thats the same as a 5% increase in power!!
I dont know much about 156's.  Can the cold air intake be improved?  How much does under-bonnet heat impact on air entering the engine?  Can heat reflective tape be fitted to the inlet tract?  You can increase intake charge density without resorting to forced induction.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: poohbah on October 22, 2018, 01:51:25 PM
If you've got two 156s, you won't need rear seats in the TS - that'll save a few kilos. AC is useless at the best of times, so dump the compressor - there's another few kg.

Actually - go and have a read of some posts from last year - a member in SA (I think) has modified his TS so its also track-able, but still road legal and still fucntional as a daily driver.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on October 22, 2018, 02:13:29 PM
Actually thatís a great idea! Iíd love to have it looking a bit like a street/track car. As for tyres I recently fitted pilot sport 4s to the v6 and I canít fault them at all!
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: johnl on October 22, 2018, 02:37:30 PM
Years ago I decided to have a proper go at cutting the rust from my old Alfetta sedan (1.8L). Stripped it out to find all the rot, and ended up with only a drivers seat, no windscreen or rear window, no doors, no bonnet, no boot lid, no spare, no carpet, nothing much more than the body shell with suspension, brakes, steering and driveline still attached. Of course the fatal extent of the rust became horrendously obvious, and I abandoned the idea...

But, with all that weight stripped out, it was much quicker in a straight line (on a private road of course).

In the end I swapped the cars' corpse (for accommodation during a kart racing state championship) to someone who was intending to build a hot-rod using the Alfetta's mechanicals. I wonder if he ever did...

Regards,
John.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: poohbah on October 22, 2018, 02:58:07 PM
Found the link to the 156 track car posts:

www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=15304.msg89218#msg89218 (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=15304.msg89218#msg89218)

If you search "formula 98" should also come up with more detailed info.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: CitroŽnbender on November 12, 2018, 10:23:07 PM
No both ours are fantasia blue. We have a twin spark manual and a v6 auto

If that was your V6 156 I heard/saw last Friday evening, itís got a wonderful sounding exhaust.
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: julianB on November 18, 2018, 10:59:05 AM
Turbo the TS.
Youíll have way more grunt than a V6, even at 15 psi.

Yeah, 10:1 is on the high side for 15 psi but if you have an aftermarket ECU youíll be able to figure out the sweet spot (ie. start at 6 psi and add boost- if youíre pulling timing out at full load so you can increase boost, youíre chasing your tail and wonít make any real gains).
It will make for a Torque monster with good top end, it just wonít sing like a 6!

Iíd say to do a budget job, youíd be able to find a second hand internal eastegate GT28 off an S15 for a few hundred.
Exhaust manifold and dump pipe fabricated. You could even keep the stock exhaust to save some bucks but it wonít help your cause at all! Cheap exhaust manifold about $800
Intercooler and piping- $2k
Upgrade fuel pump $500
Rising rate fuel regulator $400
ECU, wired and tuned $3k
If you run out of fuel (lean AFR) when itís on boost, upgrade injectors.
Donít rev it harder than stock and the rods should take it.
Iím not saying it will last 200k kms but at the end of the day, i canít really see any four cylinder Alfas after the Alfetta ever being worth anything near what a V6 equivalent is, so have some fun with the four banger and chop yourself a few jap cars on the way👍🏽
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on November 21, 2018, 01:21:40 PM
Yeah that would be my v6. Just had exhaust and new stereo fitted. Iíve just bought a twin spark selespeed with a stuffed gearbox but rebuilt engine with receipts. Iíll put that straight in my twin spark manual 🙂
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: 75guygtvgirl on March 29, 2019, 08:49:04 AM
Ok quick update. Donor engine is out and in the process of having its belts done. Will also do thermostat, all fluids, injectors etc. so for now I wonít be fitting a turbo but rather make the car more fun to drive. Iíve ordered coilovers, short shift kit, exhaust, brakes and some very sticky tyres. Also fitting Simmons fr17s in gold as the car is azzurro fantasia.  So hopefully it wonít be too long and Iíll be behind the wheel again
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: Storm_X on August 06, 2021, 09:35:06 PM
How did you go Ņ
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: aarc on November 21, 2021, 01:09:44 PM
I have a  twin spark turbo setup if your interested
Thanks
Title: Re: Twin spark turbo
Post by: warsch on November 21, 2021, 10:06:47 PM
Is for Twin Spark found in 156/147? What does the kit consist of? Is ECU included?