Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ahsoka on October 13, 2018, 08:50:41 PM

Title: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on October 13, 2018, 08:50:41 PM
As above and seeing as the run around V6 156 I had threw a belt I now have a dummy set up engine .
After seeing the cam belt routing and tensioner first hand and being suitably disgusted went and visited a mate and came  back with  4 1UZFE cam pulleys , the tensioner and tensioner pulley , the bottom crank drive pulley and the increase wrap pulleys .
Best thing is the cam pulleys themselves are only 1.5 mm bigger in diameter so will fit nicely !!
40 teeth on the Alfa versus 48 teeth on the Lexus .
The other bonus is that the pulley mount on the Alfa camshaft is bigger than the Lexus cam shaft so it would be quite easy to have the Alfa cams cylindrically ground to match the the lexus pulleys with enough meat for a locating shoulder as well or do I use the back part of a vernier cam system and mount the Lexus pulley to that ??
Tending to go have the cams ground to match the end of the Lexus camshafts .
Having now had a bit of a play I will be able to use two pulleys to increase the wrap on the inner cam pulley instead of Alfas one .
It also looks like the Lexus tensioner will be relatively easy to adapt as well .
Seeing as I will have more wrap the tensioner will not need to be anywhere near as aggressive as the Alfa unit and it then follows that the belt will get a far easier time of it accordingly .
Do not know about the bottom pulley yet as Alfa have a 40mm crank nut and my biggest socket is 36 .
But why ????????
I have worked on so many different engines and so many different makes and have never come across a crank nut or bolt so big on a car engine .
As an example the crank bolt on a Toyota 2JZ 6 cylinder engine on which I very recently refreshed the timing belt on  is 22mm . 
Any how will post up some pics so people can see what I'm up to .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: 105gta on October 13, 2018, 09:46:37 PM
Before you buy the wrong socket for the crank it's a 41mm!
I suspect the reason for being so large is hat the  engine is externally balanced and therefore the pulley has a counter weight in it, which leads to the crank actually being rather thick compared to most other brands to ensure the imbalance of the pulley is thoroughly transferred to the rest of the crankshaft.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Pseudonym on October 13, 2018, 09:53:33 PM
You know, I once entertained the notion of putting the 164 V6 into my MX22 and literally every piece of feedback was along the lines of "But JZ, but UZ, but GR"... I guess people either appreciate good music or they don't

Pictures would be excellent, particularly what bell housing and box setup you end up with.

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Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on October 14, 2018, 12:22:50 AM
Thanks for that 41 mm it is .
Its not that I do not like 2J's or 1uz's it's just I want a lighter more compact engine , I only want/need about 240 HP so don't see the point of having  an engine in there that can handle 800 HP and no 90% V8's , a nice 6 throw 60%  all alloy V6 will do just nicely .
One of the probs with a 2J is that if I want a 6 speed gearbox I have to put a V160 Supra box in it and they are 5 grand plus...way too rich for me .
I could go on and on but I will be using the standard J160 6 speed box so no gearbox mounts need to be made and no drive shaft mods , I will reflash the Alfa ECU so no aftermarket ECU which is $1500 plus tuning and so on and so on .
The Busso V6 will give me 240 HP which is plenty when you consider the standard 2 litre 6 makes 153 HP !!
Will talk more with some pics tomorrow .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on October 14, 2018, 09:53:04 PM
You can see from the first pic that the Alfa camshaft end can easily be ground to match the 1uz camshaft end .
In the second pic that's the 1uz pulleys in place and they clear .
In the third pic you can see approx where the tensioner will sit .
For the center bearing pulley that increases the wrap between the heads I will remove the alloy webbed plate and replace it with a solid piece 60/71 plate , this will enable me to drill and tap where ever I like and then use two bearings instead of one to increase wrap to the inner cam belt pulleys .
having now removed the the crank pulley and cam drive the inner diameter is 37 mm while the 1uz pulley is only 35 mm...bonus , very easy to bore the 1uz pulley out and re-key to match .
I will also use the existing tensioner bolt holes to bolt an 8mm piece of plate  on which can then be drilled to suit the 1uz tensioner .
I can now see that this mod is entirely possible with basic engineering ,the most expensive thing will be having the Alfa cam ends ground to match the 1uz cam ends .
Starting to get pretty excited .
The 1uz teeth will be 48/24 against the Alfa 40/20 and as there will be more wrap less tension will be required plus the 1uz system allows for a bit of give while maintaining a constant tension on the belt .
All good things and I would expect to get 100,000 K's out of a belt like an engine should .
There are lots of cases of Toyota/Lexus engines getting well over 200,000 K's  out of a belt before they where changed and I personally know of an LS400 getting 260,000 K's out of a belt and it was still running just fine !!
 I have found a 3.0 engine and now just have to negotiate for it , then I can rip the cams out and really get into this project .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on October 14, 2018, 09:57:53 PM
Second pic .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on October 14, 2018, 09:59:00 PM
Third .
As a note the bearing you see is a 1uz one that screwed straight in !!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Pseudonym on October 16, 2018, 09:24:58 PM
That sounds like a solid plan, I assume the 1uz belt is a bit wider as well? I don't know enough about these engines to say whether or not decreasing belt tension could have any ill effects but the dual pulley modifications sound very sensible, it's a shame there isn't as big an aftermarket for the busso blocks as there is for the Nord engines, this sounds like a very useful project. I've always loved my Japanese engines but they can't beat that V6 sound, anyways, best of luck

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Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: poohbah on October 16, 2018, 11:49:56 PM
I get the impression there is a pretty big aftermarket scene for Busso motors in Europe - especially weird places like Poland, Czech Republic etc. Check out some of the Busso lovers pages on FB - mostly European, and seem to do plenty of full fat engine mods, swaps, cross-marque transplants.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 17, 2018, 07:03:18 AM
Iím interested to hear more about editing the ECU. Lots more, ideally.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on October 17, 2018, 10:02:21 AM
I currently run a Lexus  IS200 as my go to work and back car and I bought it at 146,000 K's , initially the factory service life of the belt was 150,000 K's and the weekend after I bought it I was doing the usual checks that one does after buying a secondhand car.
I decided to remove the top cam belt cover as a check not really worried as the service interval was 150 K .
Holly molly , the belt was 7 mm wide !!
3 years or so after the car was new they reduced the service interval to 100,000 K's , the bush that the tensioner arm swings on wears fractionally and it moves the belt sideways and it rubs itself to death up against the inside of the steel cover....there was 6 tonnes of black cotton wool inside the cover !!
My point is that even with a belt that was a third of the width it should have been it still did not break !!!!!
If you design in the correct amount of wrap you do not need a lot of tension on the cam belt .
I also believe that the extra teeth on the 1uz also help with belt longevity and yes the belt is wider .
We will see .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Duk on October 25, 2018, 06:19:03 PM
I'm not sure why you'd want to put an Alfa engine in a Toyota, especially as Toyota do make some very decent and readily available V6 engines. But to each their own.

Music wise. From what I've seen, Toyota number their cylinders differently to what Alfa did. But the way the cylinder firing order progresses thru the engine is exactly the same as the Alfa engine.
They are both a 60* V6 engine.
The actual noises should be similar if the inlet manifold, exhaust manifold/extractors, exhaust system and camshaft specifications are close.

But fixing Alfa timing belt related issues is, in my opinion, a very worthy cause.
By following solid engineering practices, creating a reliable, long term durable and easily (and well priced after the initial outlay) serviceable set up to replace what Alfa did should be straightforward.
Really good belt wrap, as you've mentioned, a good belt tooth profile, decent belt width and well designed, durable and simple belt tensioner are the key.
It's not rocket surgery unless you're Italian...................
At the end of the day, love them as much as we do, there isn't anything amazing about the Alfa V6. They don't have any real challenges about them. Their peak engine speeds are nothing amazing (lets be honest, unless you've made significant changes, you're not revving it past 6500-7000rpm!), but they have a poor reputation for drive belt life and cam timing integrity (more so the 12 valve engines).
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: sportiva on October 28, 2018, 07:44:34 PM
Duk is right Toyota engines are brilliant for any of the Toyota family of model or make put a Toyota engine in your Lexus or a Lexus engine in your Toyota. please don't put a Busso engine in your Toyota [Lexus] family sedan!! that would be an insult to Mr Busso who designed two of the best and long-lived engines Alfa Romeo ever built
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 28, 2018, 10:12:04 PM
Next youíll be saying I canít put orange juice in my coffee.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on October 28, 2018, 11:06:40 PM
The standard VVTI interference IS200 engine only makes 153 HP
153 HP !!!
The engine is also relatively weak .
I would like approx 250 HP , that would be more than enough for me , that's a 100 more than I have at the moment .
This is the second car and takes me to work and back so budget is limited .
I had basically resigned myself to fitting a Merc 2.3 supercharger fitting a return fuel line and using a raising rate fuel return regulator and with that I would get an extra 50 to 60 HP safely using the stock ECU.
No turbos !!!!
I will not use an engine or do a mod that requires an aftermarket ECU...budget again no 2 grand for that kind of carry on .
No 90 degree V8's , too little space too much expense with exhaust la la la !!
NO Toyota 1J or 2J , too much money too expensive to retain a 6 speed gearbox and ECU thing again .
Plus I ONLY want 250 HP do not need to run an engine that is strong enough and heavy enough to carry 800 HP .
I like my small 6 cylinder engine so no four cylinders either .
An IS200 with a 2j in it or the IS300 do not handle as nicely due to the extra weight of the bigger engine .
I wanted a 60 degree all alloy V6...nice , lighter , shorter and still a 6 .
Other Toyota/Lexus V6's either too big or too complicated !!
Direct port injection blah blah ECU thing again , no manual gearboxs for the front wheel drive Aurion/Camry V6's blah blah .
So , knew about the earlier 3.0 12 valve Busso V6's , did a bit of research and found  out about the later 24 valve engines and during this came across a guy in England with a similar mindset to mine looking for an engine for his Dax and he went right into it and wait for it settled for a 3.0 24 Valve Busso !!
Can be found here http://www.alfadax.com/ makes good reading .
So a light all alloy V6 that is strong , responds well to tuning , I can use the stock Alfa ECU  , IT IS VERY VERY PRETTY , and is special as it has a SIX THROW CRANK  which hardly any mass produced V6's have and that is why it sounds so different to most other V6's, they all have two conrods on each throw also like most V8's .
I can use my standard 6 speed box so no costly special drive shaft or rear gearbox mount the shifter stays stock , bolt an alloy plate to the side engine mount studs and fab up the two mounts and the engine is sitting in place .
I have done many many engine transplants and this one will be relatively simple engineering wise .
I will make my own gearbox adaptor , do my own engine mounts using an alloy plate bolted to the engine that will then accept a stock mount...hopefully and will do my own exhaust as well.
With a bit of solid engineering logical thought put into the cam belt system I will have a very special car for about 2 grand spent on the engine swap.
I will have saved $1400 in not having to put a single mass flywheel into the IS200 as to replace the dual mass is $2800 !!
Yes I know I will have to put a new clutch on the Busso but will use a standard flywheel .
I already have a spare IS200 car to set it all up which I obtained for free , I have another J160 gearbox which cost $200 and now I have a 2.5 24 valve V6 engine to use as a mock up which at the moment owes me - $200 as I have wrecked a 156 out and made so far $200 more than I paid for it !!
I will also do ALL my own wiring as I have done many times before .
A well set up lowered IS200 with a 240 odd HP Busso engine in it will be something very special indeed !!
2J's and V8's have been done to death in the IS200 and as my dad always said " the only reason to be different , is to be better !! "
I have now located a good 3.0 24 valve engine with flywheel , ECU , engine loom and engine bay wiring for a $1000 so its all staring to come together .
The cost of having the 1uzfe cam end pulley mount ground onto the end of the Busso cams will be about $60 for each camshaft...again not expensive .
I will be able to machine the bottom crank pulley to size myself as the 1uzfe crank pulley inner diameter is 2 mm smaller !!
I will have to get the keyway broached but again not a big job !!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 28, 2018, 11:26:19 PM
Six way V6 cranks are also found in the 90į PRV V6 and the 60į ES9J4/L7X motors.

That aside, I think the project sounds like much fun. Canít wait to see it unfold.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Pseudonym on October 29, 2018, 12:34:04 AM
Sounds about right. Workshop local to me did an LSA into an IS200 and while it's very possible it's very very custom, read expensive. While the Toyota V6s do make good power I never see them put into road cars - if they're anything like the old Toyota V12 it's because the ECUs are built to integrate into particular cars with particular sensors etc and it's easier to throw a few grand at something standalone. Alfadax is a great blog as well, but christ it's a tight fit in that chassis...

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Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: LaStregaNera on October 29, 2018, 10:20:42 AM
Plenty of Toyota V6s going into Stratos replicas these days, and there's at least 2 AE86s I've heard of running the Toyota 3.5l v6 (2GR)...
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Duk on October 29, 2018, 11:29:11 AM
Plenty of Toyota V6s going into MR2s aswell.

From what I understand about the IS200, like most cars built in the last 15 ish years, the instruments are controlled by the ECU.
If you use all of the sensors from the 1G engine on another 6 cylinder engine with equal firing order, the ECU would be able to run it and the instruments.
Crank and cam sensors would be the hardest ones to do. Chances are that Toyota used the same/similar ones for other engine of the same era. The Alfa's CAS and cam speed reset will be pure Bosch.
The fact that the factory ECU's tuning would probably be out of whack for a different engine is a biggish challenge. The Toyota ECUs aren't tunable (apparently Toyota paid a hefty fee to not have the mandatory OBD2 interface for their cars).
A decent interceptor tuner like a Trust Emanage Ultimate would allow you to tune it well, but there is a considerable cost just buying 1.
I'm not seeing why you'd RWD a FWD Alfa engine to put in a Toyota, when you could RWD a Toyota FWD engine and put it in a Toyota.......  :o
What about a RWD layout 4 Runner/Prado versions of the V6 engines?

If you genuinely could do this for $2000, that'd be a big achievement.
But how real world, long term durable would it be?
Hoses and other plumbing parts/pieces, wiring and exhaust systems. The things that fail and leave you strandard.
But more than anything, a home made engine/gearboxadapter plate............. Acceptable misalignment for something that spins to 6-7000RPM would be tiny! Less than 0.01mm!

In the long run, when it's time to sell, how many people are going to want to entertain your approach to the car?
A different Toyota engine in a Toyota is 1 thing. But an Alfa engine, with all of its perceived faults/reputation...........  ???
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 29, 2018, 01:01:00 PM
Surely itís not a project done for resale to ďa person of average driving abilityĒ as the NSW modification regs used to state. I totally admire and encourage this sort of hotrodding; more authentic than the unspoken colour-by-numbers rules that apply to so many modded vehicles. Only today was I pondering how rapidly the legions of ďEleanorsĒ race towards oversight, now a blip in barely-remembered popular culture.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on October 29, 2018, 03:25:55 PM
The Toyota and Lexus  V6's are JUST TOO BIG to fit easily into the IS engine bay , this has been tried a few times and every single one was aborted due to size issues .
I can pick up an IS250 V6 with about 100,000 K's on it for $600 !!
A bargain seeing as MY WIFE'S CAR is an IS250 !!
No way will that fit in my IS200 never even considered it and I do all the servicing on it , that's not to mention [ through I will !! ] the direct injection hassle and so on .
If I could go that way I'd  just stick an IS350 engine in it they make 310 HP N/A no prob and can be bought for about $1200 .
Again need a Link G4 or similar ECU .
I will retain the IS ECU to run all but the engine stuff and use the ALFA ECU to run the engine....essentially doable but time consuming , I could not count the number of times i'm sitting on a roller chair with loom wires everywhere .
I WILL SAY IT AGAIN !!
None of the Toyota V6 engines have a 6 throw crank !!!!!
The only 6 throw all alloy engine that MEETS ALL CRITERIA including availability and price is the Alfa !!!!
I have done many many conversions where I have made my own bell housing adaptor  and I have not ever had a problem , I will either source a broken manual box to cut up or if I cannot sell the auto I took out of the 156 I will cut that up .
As to cost I have an engine complete fpr a $1000 including all the electrics I need , I have a J160 six speed box that owes me $200 , there will be no gearbox mounts driveshaft shit as that will all be stock , I will make my own adaptor , I will do my own wiring and will fab the exhaust myself using the original headers .
Add in some cylindrical grinding costs plus the same stuff you always have on any engine transplants and I think I will come in under budget !!
Take  $1400 off what ever I spend as that is how much a new clutch and flywheel for the 1GFE is going to cost me so essentially my budget is $3400 .
I also have total access to a mill and a lathe .
This is far from my first rodeo .
But the bottom line is I WANT SOMETHING A BIT DIFFERENT .
A slightly lighter way shorter all alloy V6 giving me a 100 HP more than I have now nestled up against the firewall will be AWESOME !!
AND THE BUSSO V6 IS VERY PRETTY TO LOOK AT...who wouldn't want that under their hood ??
I have personally seen a few Nissan SJ20 or FD20 engines in the IS200 BUT do not want a four OR a turbo , I have done that all of that !!V8's , turbo's , turbo 12A rotary ,  13B bridgeport rotaries in fact I sold both of my 13B bridgeport 1984 RX7's to buy the IS200 .
Been there done that moving on .
Have a look at a Juno SS3 or a Noble M400 and what they are doing with the Jag all alloy V6 .
I also know of a Nissan S14 that is being fitted with a Jag 3.0 alloy V6 .
As a note after its duties as a set up car my spare IS200 will be used as my sons drift car and WE WILL be putting a twin turbo 3.0 Jaguar Duratec V6 in it .
Mark my words that the Lexus V6 will start turning up in car engine swaps , they are cheap to buy VERY VERY strong and with cam chain drive that is basically good for life of engine....why not !!
Imagine a twin turbo IS350 alloy V6 pushing 500 HP or more for about 4 grand !!
I have grown tied of the " oh just put a 2J in it " , 2J's are old and getting hard to get so now are expensive and take in mind a stock 3.0 2J only makes 220 HP .
The last car to come with a 2J in it was about  2002 that's 16 years ago !!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: poohbah on October 29, 2018, 04:24:14 PM
This may be a dumb question - could you even get it road-registered with a Busso V6, given it would be both a size and power upgrade from a totally different manufacturer?
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Duk on October 29, 2018, 04:35:16 PM
Toyota 60* V6's too wide to fit and yet there are multiple, 90* 1UZFE V8 powered IS200s out there.
Toyota V6's don't have 6 throw cranks, but a quick google look shows otherwise.

I always laugh when people say that their gearbox adapter is perfectly fine. "The gearbox only broke because of all the extra horse power"............

Well it's your car.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Pseudonym on October 29, 2018, 08:35:00 PM
Yeah I've seen Toyota V6 swaps, however everything I've had has been either a four or inline six originally so anything other than an RB/JZ has been too hard basket, especially since you basically buy off the shelf engine management for them and you're set to smash boost. Thought the 2GR were still a lot more expensive than that, but I agree the age and price of the JZ are not sensible. Last turbo 2J I saw was 4500 for the long motor, hundred thousand ks plus...

Price for the cam modifications sounds awesome, and although I ended up buying an already welded bell housing for Z32 to SR years back it still wasn't that expensive to buy a laser cut adaptor plate and have the housing machined back straight, probably thousands of drift cars had the same mod done without issue. I remember bookmarking the alfadax site for his approach to getting the S2000 box behind the busso.

And yes, it's going to look and sound awesome I would have already bought an IS years back but I'm slow enough fixing the cars I have

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Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 29, 2018, 11:39:18 PM
Quote
The only 6 throw all alloy engine that MEETS ALL CRITERIA including availability and price is the Alfa !!!

Whatís wrong with these, to be excluded so summarily?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_ESL_engine
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: LaStregaNera on November 01, 2018, 11:08:36 AM
Toyota 60* V6's too wide to fit and yet there are multiple, 90* 1UZFE V8 powered IS200s out there.
Toyota V6's don't have 6 throw cranks, but a quick google look shows otherwise.

I always laugh when people say that their gearbox adapter is perfectly fine. "The gearbox only broke because of all the extra horse power"............

Well it's your car.
A mate had a LS powered IS200. It was awesome.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Craig_m67 on November 01, 2018, 11:54:51 AM
Comepletely off topic, but there seems to be some knowledgeable peeps in this thread who may be able to help me.  I am doing a complete timing chain replacement on a Hyundai/Kia 3.8L v6 this weekend (Ď06 KIA Grand Carnival)

Iím struggling to find any manuals, workshop guides etc.. would anybody know of any links, PDF downloads etc.., would be of a great help (torque wrench tables, gotchas etc.)


This v6 engine (G6DA) has been used in multiple Hyundai/Kia, issue is a failing hydraulic tensioner, which causes timing chain rattle on startup (until oil pressure is built) leading to chain guide failures and then ruined cam sprockets etc.

Any pointers, links etc appreciated
(Apologies for the thread hijack, only mention it due to the V6 knowledge espoused)  :)

Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on November 01, 2018, 06:34:27 PM
Quite correct Mr Duk , perhaps I should have said totally different firing order ??
Do you know me ??
Have you ever seen one of my conversions ??
Have you ever driven one ??
Have you ever even  talked to anyone who has one of my conversions ??
No ??
Yet with absolutely no information you deem it ok to cast aspirations on my work even though you have no knowledge of it whatsoever !!
What kind of person does that make you ??
I do not recall saying that a Lexus/Toyota V6 was too wide !!
I do recall saying that it was TOO BIG .
I actually have an IS250 and an IS200 parked side by side in my driveway right at this moment in time and have done for at least two years the 250 being my wife's....would you like me to post a pic to prove it !!
Just from lifting the hood on the 250 you instantly see how freaking HUUUGE the engine is .
I have an Alfa 24 Valve 2.5 V6 on an engine stand at the moment and externally they are the same size as the 3.0 V6 and they are tiny in comparison to a 1MZ-fe or a 2GR

Mr Citroen , nothing has been decided without much thought and research , your engine has stroke and bore of 82 x 87 , the Alfa is 72 x 90 way more over square so no not even close .
Add  to that the height of the Alfa V6 is only 700mm
Only two engines  remained on the list after ALL MY CRITERIA where mainly met , the Busso and the Jag 3.0 litre V6 and the Alfa got the nod for three reasons:

1 No VVTI

2 Will not require a stand alone ECU

3 The Alfa V6 is far far far far far far better to look  at , no contest really .

As I have stated before this is far from my first rodeo and 44 years of playing , racing and modifying cars played no small part in making my decision.

Its nice to see nearly everybody not getting personal about this [ except for Mr Duk of course ].
The single biggest percentage factor of this decision was budget , this swap will be done for less than a stand alone ECU and tuning would cost me which I price out at $2500
I have not included the cost of my personal time as essentially it is free , if I where to include that add in $6000 .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Duk on November 01, 2018, 07:07:56 PM
WOW!
That was an unexpected little tanty................  :o
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Duk on November 01, 2018, 07:16:49 PM

I do not recall saying that a Lexus/Toyota V6 was too wide !!
I do recall saying that it was TOO BIG .


The Toyota and Lexus  V6's are JUST TOO BIG to fit easily into the IS engine bay , this has been tried a few times and every single one was aborted due to size issues .


Yeah, well..............  ???
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Duk on November 01, 2018, 07:25:42 PM
And yet here we are. A 90*, quad cam TOYOTA V8 in an IS200.............
But hey, the Toyota V6 is TOO BIG..............
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on November 01, 2018, 08:41:30 PM
Whatís the timeline for the project? Looking forward to work starting in earnest.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on November 01, 2018, 08:44:07 PM
Do you own an IS200 Mr Duk or have you ever ??
Do you have a spare IS200 in YOUR workshop that you have had non standard  engines sitting in ??
Why are you commenting on a subject when you do not even own the car that is being discussed ??
How many Lexus/Toyota V6 engines have you had personal experience with ??
Are you stupid or just pretending to be stupid ??
Why not stick to the title of the post ??
Did you even think to ask why I think its too big and unsuitable compared to the Busso V6 ??
Or are you just one of THOSE type of posters who stir up trouble ??
You seem to have a very condescending mightier than thou attitude with very little to back it up .
I'm out here actually doing it and thought it might be of note to other Alfa V6 owners that there well might be another alternative to the poorly engineered Alfa cam belt system for those fitting one in a rear wheel drive configuration .
You seem to be doing a Ground Hog Day type thing on the fact that I consider a particular V6 too big to fit easily in my IS200 .
What the hell does it matter to you ??
I'm a little over people who think they can post what they like and get away with it .
My apologies to the admin .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on November 01, 2018, 09:08:48 PM
The time line is as soon as practicable but then that's always the case !!
I have already mocked up all the 1UZ tensioner system and cam belt pulleys and know what size and thickness of alloy plate I'll need to replace the Alfa cast one .
Cannot do much about grinding the 1UZ cam pulley mount on the Alfa cams til I actually get the 3.0 engine [ should pick it up in about 3 weeks ].
Trying to sell the 156 auto I have , but if I cannot I'll cut the front part off to use as a part of the adapter .
I'm so hesitant to cut up a perfectly good gearbox !!
I will if I have to and getting a broken manual box looks like it will not happen , the auto box owes me nothing so that might well be the way it will go .
I expect to have the engine sitting in place front engine mounts done by Christmas .
It helps I have a spare chassis that will enable me to get it to turn key before swapping it into my daily .
As far as engine swaps go this one is relatively simple especially as the block was made for a rear wheel drive car originally , for instance it still has three North/South engine mount studs sticking out of the block on both sides...handy !!
I cannot wait to do the exhaust as there will be so much room I will nearly be able to stand in the engine bay alongside the engine to do it !!
I have learnt over the years to double the expected timeline as unforeseen things generally pop up .
However I'm quite proud that my last 4 or so swaps went pretty much to plan .
The last swap that went a bit long was down to the owner , he fitted new head gaskets in the 1UZ before I received the engine to fit into a Cressida and put one on inverted , so when we cranked it up the head gasket leaked , eventually had to pull the engine to get the heads off and all was revealed !!
I'll update as things happen with pics .
I must say I'm pretty excited about the cam pulley and tensioner mod , it's all looking like its meant to be , course we will have to wait till its running and has a few K's up to see if it will really work as expected !!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Rising Sun on November 01, 2018, 09:25:21 PM
Personally, I do like things which are a bit different. Personally not my cuppa tea, but hey, we are all different! One thing is for sure, if your choosing an engine based purely on sound, well I think youíve made the right choice.

I am intrigued with the tensioner mods and look forward to hearing updates on that. Am I right in saying that cost is the prohibitive factor in not going for a 3.2?
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: scott.venables on November 02, 2018, 12:45:07 AM
Interesting project! 

One question, why grind the cam noses down when you could (presumably) bore out the pulleys? Or even a combination of boring the pulleys and machining a bush to adapt to the cams?  Means you could go for performance cams later down the track without having to modify them, also if you were interested, marketing the pulleys and tensioner as a kit would be more attractive because people could use their standard cams. 

I wouldn't want to modify a standard part in a way that meant another Alfa owner couldn't use it in their car if I didn't finish the project either. You seem pretty committed to this project but I've got enough unfinished projects that it would make me uncomfortable.

Cheers,
Scott
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Craig_m67 on November 02, 2018, 01:20:38 AM
Fuck me... seriously, itís the internet - we all wish you well with the project and want to see and hear how unfolds.  Donít let a ďlittle_missĒ communication ruin your weekend ;)

Now, more freaking importantly- who can answer my Kia/Hyundai question.  Youíre all to JDM/import knowledgeable to not have some sort of lead for me...

Other than that, carry on. I want to see a Busso in a nicely frocked Toyota just like the next guy




Actually, Bazz.. can we stick one in the Grand Carnival, might be cheaper/simpler
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on November 02, 2018, 08:45:42 AM
Craig: Fold down the back row of seats, open the hatch, lay down a few sheets of thick cardboard and hoick it in there with the engine crane. Close hatch and job done. You didnít say it needed to be hooked up.

Per the subject engine swap, Iím still trying to think through the ECU mash-up. A potential sticking point could be the RPM input if the impulse generation uses different tooth counts. Also while immo off isnít a big deal Iím not sure how the Alfa ECU can be edited to work in the absence of CAN dialogue. This is not saying it canít be done, I just want to know how itís best done!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on November 02, 2018, 06:37:12 PM
Correct Mr Sun the 3.2 is waaay outside my budget and not really bothered as the 3.0 has a slightly shorter stroke also .
I'm like you a bit Mr Scott in being hesitant to mod something that cannot be undone .
However the taper is a pain especially if you have to reproduce it internally and I feel that for Alfa it was a simple/cheap solution to a problem they created themselves .
The 1uz cam snout is simple and all you need and at a cost of around $60 per cam very cost effective , it would also be relatively easy to buy a vernier cam pulley system for the Alfa V6 and just adapt the 1uz cam pulley to that .
I very recently did the timing belt on a mates IS300 which has a twin cam straight 3.0 2JZ 6 in it , just line up the marks on the cam pulleys which i take past the marks a tiny bit so that when you move them back it means there is no slack in the drive side of the belt  , have the engine at top dead center using the marks on the crank drive pulley fit the tensioner and pull the pin that holds the spring tension in and viola... done , that easy .
Yes by having a taper you can actually dial in the cam timing between cams on the same head and between the heads but how many owners actually do that ?
And how many owners do that after a new cam belt has stretched a bit after 5000 K's ??
Not many Aunt Penny !!
Having spent a bit of time looking at the 2.5 engine I have on the stand I feel the crux of Alfa's cam belt problems stem from the lack of wrap and all the other associated issues stem from that .
With questionable wrap you then have to have extra belt tension for the start up of the engine which is when a belt is most likely to jump and another follow on is the need to have the tensioner static with no movement for a bit of " give "
That complicates the tensioner design in that you then have to have some way of lessening the tension on the belt for normal running and I believe hydraulic tensioners and Bi-metal springs have all been tried with not great success .
I kinda really don't want to be critical but the tensioner I took of the 2.5 V6 is rubbish !!
In reality the whole engineering of the cam belt system is very poor and consequently we see all these failures .
The thing I find most annoying about this is that it could have been so easily changed after the fact !!
After all everything is just bolted on .
If you compare the strong rigid components in a 2J or a 1UZ engine cam belt system or even  my 1g-fe engine you just wonder what the Alfa engineers where thinking or even if they where thinking at all .
It's almost like two different sets of engineers designed this engine , the engine itself is close to brilliant [ after all I like it so much I'm gonna put one in my IS !! ], then after that a brain dead set of engineers designed the cam belt system !!
Anyhow getting off subject a bit again .
As a note when I bought my IS200 it had 146,000 K's on it and the belt service life was 150,000 K's .
I was just going over the car as one does when you get a new to me secondhand car , I was debating whether to pull of the top of the timing cover to check and was thinking why bother I'll be doing a new belt in a month or so anyhow .
I then thought what the heck its 3 6mm screws why not .
WELL the top cover was full of this black cotton wool type stuff, about 6 tonnes of it !!
Apparently the bush in the arm that tensioner pully runs on wears a bit and side loads the belt which trims itself eventually down to nothing !!
My cam belt was 7 mm wide when it's supposed to be 26 mm wide !!
Apparently about 4 years after the car was first released they changed the service interval to 100,00 K's for obvious reasons .
My point is that although the belt was only 7 mm wide IT STILL DID NOT BREAK !!
Because decent wrap was designed in the tension on the belt could also be substantially less plus the tensioner pulley swings on a short arm which allows a bit of give so the belt isn't loaded up on start up .
That design philosophy is what I am attempting to fit to my Alfa V6 .

Mr Curve please one thing at a time !!
Yes correct the pick up on the crank sensor might be an issue , does it pick up from the pulley or from a dedicated timing plate ??
I will have to check that out...however a problem for the future !!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on December 10, 2018, 08:03:47 PM
Any progress, or is it moving quickly as my Ď60s truck restoration project?  ???
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on December 12, 2018, 09:11:27 AM
Yep exactly !!
Only real progress is lots of thought type stuff and as these things always go , long periods of zilch [ or so it seems ] and then a lot happens in a short time !!
I've had to wreck out the rest of the 156 to keep the wife happy....chassis needs to be goneski before Christmas .
Currently just had a set of Swift coilover springs arrive for the rear coilovers and now I can actually fit them to the car , I have been running around with coilovers on the front and chopped springs with standard shocks on the rear , finally got real shitty at the rear upsetting the front when near the limit .
Finally invested $300 in some swift springs for the rear as the ones that came on the shocks where way too soft and no doubt having worlds best springs on the rear will induce me to fit same on the front !!
Anyhow I have spent a lot of time looking at the front of the Busso V6 which is on an engine stand plus doing a lot of measuring .
I will definitely have the 1uz cam pulley mount profile ground onto the Alfa cams , it is the easiest simplest solution and also relatively cheap , I thought a lot about keeping the taper but I feel this causes a lot of the problems , if there where a heap of V6 owners who actually use this to dial the cams in after the initial new belt stretch I might have thought differently .
However I bet there are very few who actually do this and those that do would probably buy and fit a vernier type set-up and this is what I will do down the track if I feel its necessary .
You can buy vernier set ups for the 1uz however initially I will set it all up and then positively locate the pulleys onto the cam shaft .
Most probably with a scotch key done in a mill with an end mill .
I have calculated that a 16 mm alloy plate of 6061 will be more than sufficient to replace the cast plate on that's bolted to the front  of the engine if i need any extra thickness for mounting pulleys and such like I will simply weld bosses on and then mill to suit , however if i can avoid welding by going slightly thicker in the plate I will even though it increases the cost a lot .
I will update when I have something to show .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on January 21, 2019, 02:45:07 PM
an update of sorts !!
I pick up my 3.0 24 valve engine on Saturday morning...very appy .
Have also acquired a set of non cat headers that have the bigger diameter runners that end straight so very suitable for RWD , they will save about 3 days of fab work .
I'm also rethinking how to go about fitting the 1uz cam pulleys onto the Alfa cam shafts .
It would still be easier to just have the 1uz end ground straight onto the Alfa camshafts and probably cheaper also .
However after having a chat with an Alfa guy he noted that he would probably fit that system but not if he had to pull his camshafts out to have them ground .
So if I had a CNC plate made up with a spigot to suit the 1uz pulleys that then bolted to the taper on the front of the Alfa camshafts then possibly a lot more people would go for it .
As a note the fact that the Alfa camshafts are different lengths on the left and right heads and the pulleys have an offset so that they line up the same....well guess what ??
The 1uz pulleys also have an offset and when you reverse them they line up perfectly !!!
Well within about 0.5 mm or better .
How about that !!!!
This just gets better and better .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: carlo rossi on January 21, 2019, 03:57:42 PM
WHY? are you on the right forum ?
might I suggest 日本のレクサスクラブ
they would be really excited!!

or restore a real classic and get more out of it, and it actually is worth something at the end!
I beseech you to look into classic italian ownership not a butchershop
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Craig_m67 on January 21, 2019, 04:39:56 PM
Iím interested, ignore the haters  :)
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on January 26, 2019, 11:09:43 PM
Iím happily following this.

It doesnít mean Iíd do it, but the formulaic nature of so much hotrodding personally puts me off that path - so the offbeat and individualistic catches my attention instead.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on February 10, 2019, 03:32:39 PM
A small update .The 3.0 engine is now on a stand so a fair bit of thinkering and measuring has been going on .
Had a good chat with the boss of the cylindrical grinding place and we decided that grinding the 1uz cam pulley profile straight onto the end of the Alfa camshaft is the way to go at least for mine the first one .
Its relatively cheap and easy which is a good way to go to prove the fact .
He also suggested using  2jz cam pulleys as they are the same 48 teeth as the 1uz pulleys and you can buy vernier 2jz pulleys quite cheaply , he also informed me that the Evil Bay 2jz pulleys are quite ok .
Alfa auto box has been stripped leaving me with the start of a bell hosing adapter , still have to cut the front bit off with a 9 inch though !!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: CitroŽnbender on February 10, 2019, 08:33:16 PM
Woohoo! Looking forward to some work-in-progress pictures.  ;D

How are the Lexites responding to all this (presuming you are geeing up a Lexus forum)?
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on February 10, 2019, 08:48:16 PM
I get the usual " just put a 2j in it ? " or " why don't you put a 1uz in it ? " .
Currently asw of exactly now doing the how do I mod it to fit my alternator on the engine and the same with the air con pump and the power steer pump .
Do you mod the Alfa bracket to fit my alt/air pump or mod the IS bracket to fit the Alfa block ?
Will use the latest model Toyota power steer pump I can get while I'm at it .
Going back down to also measure up gearbox input shaft and length !!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: GoldCLoverLeaf on April 05, 2019, 09:34:45 PM
Any progress on this? There's an E30 BMW with a Busso conversion done several years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvG78uFj2Lo. I've also come across a few local Nord swapped cars in the past.... a Mk1 Cortina with a 1750, a TD Gemini with an Alfetta 2L, hell there's even a hotrod in the states with a Busso. The IS200 is a good chassis, similar in size to a 75. The whole 2J, 1UZ, LS1, SR20 swap everything has been done to death.
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on April 15, 2019, 06:14:24 PM
Some progress .
I will be running an Astra electric power steer pump so that will eliminate the need to mount a power steer pump .
Have domed and mounted the Alfa air con pump bracket along with the IS200 pump bracket so that it will be very close in the engine bay on the Alfa engine to the position it's in on the 1g engine , no having to modd lines or regas for me .
The bell housing adaptor is also getting close to be being finished so stuff is happening !!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on August 27, 2020, 08:18:23 PM
Finally another update !!
Have suffered a bit with 5 bulging disc's in my back with two of them pressing on exit nerves , not so great and it has slowed things up just a tad .
However...full speed ahead .
I will be using 2jz alloy Vernier adjustable cam pulleys , they are the same as 1uzfe apart from being 5 mm less in width .
This will enable me to leave the cams in the engine and I will not have to machine the the end of the camshafts .
I have found a CNC guy who will replicate the Alfa taper , after they are bolted on I will scotch key the inner part of the vernier pulley onto the end of the camshaft .
This way you can remove the outer part with the teeth on it but leave the inner part on which will mean there is a permanent way of knowing camshaft position .
This came about after talking to an Alfa guy who was very interested in the cam system upgrade but was not so keen to have to pull the cams themselves to have them machined .
So i put a bit of thought into it and I'm quite chuffed with the solution .
The other bonus is that the adjustable cam pulleys can be bought quite cheaply .
I have also cut and milled the first part of the bell hosing adapter and have now swapped in the lower kilometre IS200 gearbox so now I can cut up and machine the front part of the IS gearbox .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on August 05, 2021, 06:31:05 PM
Hello all !!
Finally started up again .
Pic's show two 2jz vernier pulleys in place , the other two pulleys are genuine 1uz V8 pulleys which have the same amount of teeth and pitch just 5 mm wider .
An adaptor is being printed up for a test then a set will be CNC'ed up .
Also an alloy plate 20mm in 6061 is on its way to replace the Alfa plate behind the left bank pulleys to enable a second bearing in-between the heads .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on August 14, 2021, 08:56:31 PM
Have managed to get a bit more done , 1uz crank pulley machined up and tension pivot now in place .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on August 14, 2021, 09:02:04 PM
It would help if I put the correct pics up !!
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on August 14, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Another pic .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on August 18, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
Finally sourced a second hand free 2jz belt cut it cos its way short and did a mock up on the tensioner side .
Gotta say its looking pretty plucking great !!
Very very pleased !!
Pick up two brand new idler bearings in the morning that are 58mm od instead of 62mm cos need the clearance over the feed into the water pump and then I'll be able to ascertain belt length.
Need to get on that as the guy at Gates told me that uncommon timing belt lengths are being phased out and I'll be getting at least two of the Gates Racing Blue Belts .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on August 27, 2021, 08:37:59 AM
Now minus one Alfa pulley as it has been turned down into the adaptor for the 2jz vernier pully .
The 2jz pulley has been bored out to 34 mm to mount on the adaptor , it all lines up exactly as it should !!
New 231 tooth belt has been ordered and should arrive today as well as have received 2 more 2jz vernier pulleys so now have four so full bore ahead .
The left bank and right bank camshafts are 14.5mm different in offset but there is enough meat in the adaptor to allow for this .
Tensioner arm has been fitted but need to make a bracket up to hold the spring device which actually provides the tension .
Will probably bolt a plate to the original Alfa tensioner holes and mount it in said plate , that's just details and the concept is proved .
Of course still have to run it but its been set up with the same amount of wrap and hardware as a Lexus 1uzfe and there have been examples of this engine that have run 400,000 K's without breaking a belt so 100,000 K's out of this system will not be a prob .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on August 30, 2021, 10:24:29 PM
Alfa gearbox housing has been cut and milled , just need to find out the the amount that need to be cut off the gearbox housing .
Was well into it and then remembered I couldn't remember the distance the back off the head needs to be from the firewall !!Will re-measure that tomorrow .
Also had a play with one of the cam covers , it has been glass bead blasted , etch primed and painted...Canary yellow .
Things really starting to happen .,
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on September 01, 2021, 10:36:05 AM
New 231 tooth belt arrived and now that I have 4 of the 2JZ Vernier pulleys I was able to mock it up as it will actually be !!
Getting back on the lathe and the mill tomorrow to turn up the other 3 camshaft taper adaptors and mill the gearbox bell housing .
Will also mill up the bracket to hold the tensioner for the cam belt .
Things are really moving along .
Title: Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
Post by: Ahsoka on September 17, 2021, 02:16:51 PM
Final tensioner install is done !!
Unfortunately it cannot go anywhere else and will just have to stick out .
Will put some kind of protecting in for it so it can't be knocked .
Still have to add a couple of stiffeners to the plate but that's just detail work .
Cannot turn it over yet as I haven't broached out the crank pulley but it definately works .