Hi Guys,
I have an alfa romeo gt 3.2 and my car started to make a noise sometimes when the engine is cold since two weeks ago and the noise always disappeared in couple of minutes.
I went to a local mechanic and he found the problem that a bearing in water pump made a loud noise in the morning.
He showed me how engine is quite without driving belt. And he recommended to replace water pump and timing belt as well because it is a wise way to save money even though timing belt is still good. Unfortunately, he didn't have a tool that used for replacing timing belt.
Hence, my car was towed to a workshop in Malagal 20th of August as driving belt was already removed. I explained the problem to a mechanic there. Tuesday afternoon, I got a call from the mechanic and he said there was no compression on cylinder 4 and he suspected timing belt jumped a tooth from water pump failure and the failure of the timing belt resulted in piston and valve contact.
I didn't understand it as my car had run smoothly without any problem before timing belt and water pump was replaced in the workshop. Afterward, I met a local mechanic and explained current engine problem. He said "bullshit" as the only problem was a noise and it is impossible that water pump failure make timing belt jumped a tooth structurally and he was sure that the workshop broke the engine. I also contacted the other specialist and visited an official alfa romeo dealer. They all disagreed with the opinion of the workshop in Malaga.
I will willingly pay $1650 for replacing timing belt and water pump if I can get my car back in good condition. But, I don't want to pay about $5000 in total for fixing the engine including timing belt and water pump due to the fault of the workshop.
Can you guys introduce me a mechanic who can write a technical report?
Thank you.
Go to Cileberti Motors in Hector St Osborne Park. They are the Alfa specialists I always use. But if the belt failed and pistons and valves have come into contact, you are going to have to make an expensive decision one way or another.
Ring http://www.cilebertimotors.com.au/ ASAP.
Sadly this information is too late for you, but these are the ONLY people in Perth I'd have gone to for the work you've had done.
GL. Sad to hear.
(Beat me to it John)
If you can prove the Malaga mech caused the damage, you may have a legal leg to stand on, but you may have to fight for it.
I had a 4x4 specialist once who nearly killed a car I had as they didn't lock tight the nut holding on the harmonic balancer., which then came off (fortunately during startup on our driveway)
In his words he said "I'll understand if you never want me to touch your car again, but I want the opportunity to make this right."
And he did, at no cost to me.
So sometimes you do get a good one.
+1 for cileberti motors, also autodelta should be pretty qualified to not mess that up.
I'd say if you show a diagram of the timing belt and auxiliary belt setup to the MTA or a magistrate you won't need a mechanics testimony, the problem you've got is that you delivered them the car not running due to the auxiliary belt removal so they have grounds to point the finger at the previous mechanic....
Sent from my HTC 2PS5200 using Tapatalk
Quote from: poohbah on August 24, 2018, 03:17:10 PM
Go to Cileberti Motors in Hector St Osborne Park. They are the Alfa specialists I always use. But if the belt failed and pistons and valves have come into contact, you are going to have to make an expensive decision one way or another.
I also got a quotation from cileberti before, I should have gone there
Quote from: Pseudonym on August 24, 2018, 04:47:46 PM
+1 for cileberti motors, also autodelta should be pretty qualified to not mess that up.
I'd say if you show a diagram of the timing belt and auxiliary belt setup to the MTA or a magistrate you won't need a mechanics testimony, the problem you've got is that you delivered them the car not running due to the auxiliary belt removal so they have grounds to point the finger at the previous mechanic....
Sent from my HTC 2PS5200 using Tapatalk
Unfortunately, this happened in autodelta.
I've been using the local workshop for the last 3 years, they did many jobs for me like replacing timing belt, clutch. also when diff was blown I got a second hand gear box including q2 through them. A co-worker of the local mechanic is in Italy with a tool to do some work there,that's why he couldn't do it.
Thank you for your advice.
Err, right... well, that's a bit of a bombshell. We haven't used them for a while but they've done work without issue before. Assuming AD are still under the same ownership I wouldn't expect them to get their explanation so wrong... unless you actually can jump a tooth by running a busso without the auxiliaries attached ???
When was the timing belt actually last done? And not just the belt, the guides and tensioners etc? There have been times when things have gone bang while with another party and I've just accepted that it was likely just unfortunate timing for natural wear and tear, but for a head recon from a routine job I can understand wanting to look at all the options.
If you're satisfied you've got all the facts lined up and are wanting to go down the mediation/small claims avenue then cilebertis are the most qualified for technical advice and repairs. In talking to them and consumer protection / legal counsel you'll establish your prospects for using that advice when seeking reimbursement, but speak to those parties before making a decision obviously. GT are a good car, but for the age it's potentially not financially logical to repair, you'd want to establish sound prospect of proving fault before investing money in it, unless of course you've got the Alfa virus and like us are happy draining the bank account to keep driving.
Personally, I learned similar lessons myself when I was younger, I cut my losses and took the car elsewhere and the workshop I ended with became my go-to for those cars for almost a decade. It wasn't cheap, but a good life lesson about the price of a professional vs the price of an amateur.
Quote from: Pseudonym on August 25, 2018, 04:39:39 AM
Assuming AD are still under the same ownership I wouldn't expect them to get their explanation so wrong... unless you actually can jump a tooth by running a busso without the auxiliaries attached ???
No you can't.
And a faulty Water Pump can not affect the timing belt, unless the whole thing come loose or disintegrates.
Quote from: Pseudonym on August 25, 2018, 04:39:39 AM
Err, right... well, that's a bit of a bombshell. We haven't used them for a while but they've done work without issue before. Assuming AD are still under the same ownership I wouldn't expect them to get their explanation so wrong... unless you actually can jump a tooth by running a busso without the auxiliaries attached ???
When was the timing belt actually last done? And not just the belt, the guides and tensioners etc? There have been times when things have gone bang while with another party and I've just accepted that it was likely just unfortunate timing for natural wear and tear, but for a head recon from a routine job I can understand wanting to look at all the options.
about 2 and half years ago when 90k, timing belt kit and metallic water pump done now 130k. A guy from cileberti also said water pump failure can't affect timing belt jumped a tooth. But he refused to write a technical report.I understand his stance.
It seems like the only option for me is consumer protection complaint or court even though it is very hard to prove their fault.
First things first - go and get a current and accurate diagnosis of what is actually the problem as she sits now and ask for a comprehensive quote to get it fixed - (I'd go to Cileberti's). Until you have a proper idea of exactly what has happened, and what the cost is going to be to rectify, you really can't do much else.
Then think about going to Consumer Protection - if you are in the RAC I would contact them first and tell them your story, and they may be able to assist, or at least give you some tips on how to go about it.
But I suspect it will be pretty hard to prove a workshop was at fault given you said at the outset you kept driving the car for a couple of weeks after first noticing there was a problem, minor though it seemed (we've all done that!).
Rereading your original post, do you know if the original mechanic did a compression test when he first diagnosed noisy water pump bearing? Or did he just have a listen and give his initial view? Maybe No4 cylinder was already a problem?
Yeah, we actually kept driving a 2.5 rwd with water falling out of the pump bearing for a while before fixing it and no issues.
As poohbah said that's the best way to go about it, but yeah having swapped mechanics the trail of who did what is murky. You *shouldn't* have timing issues at those ages and kilometers but you also can't rule out that initial belt change missing something and contributing to premature wear, and as cilebertis probably know they can establish what's happened to cylinder 4 but not why. That's a very good reason to go with cileberti, they'll give you an itemised invoice of what they've done rather than a general description of "fixed timing" etc.
Hopefully RAC or consumer protection can advise better on options.
Sent from my HTC 2PS5200 using Tapatalk
Quote from: poohbah on August 25, 2018, 12:51:27 PM
Rereading your original post, do you know if the original mechanic did a compression test when he first diagnosed noisy water pump bearing? Or did he just have a listen and give his initial view? Maybe No4 cylinder was already a problem?
I don't know he did or not but he started engine and let me heard the sound and then he drove my car several meters without driving belt for a tow as it is possible to drive structurally.
if there was a problem on cylinder, engine would run very poorly.
Actually, the mechanic wanted to defend me against autodelta, but the owner of the local shop and the owner of autodela know each other, but not friends. that's why the mechanic can't do it for me.
I have only the estimate showing price of each part for fixing the engine.
Thank you for your advice.
Hi there, I'm a little perplexed with this one because you mentioned the car was towed from the first mechanic to another workshop because the drive belt was already removed. That seems strange because putting a drive belt back is such a simple thing on these cars and wouldn't warrant a tow truck. Am I right in saying that he removed the timing belt, and worked out he needed the tools to put it back together, and hence the tow? FYI, I guess the tools he needed are the cam locks. If that's the case, then it's possible your first mechanic caused valve interference as without the cam locks, the cams can jump/snap out of position when the belt is removed. As has been previously mentioned, because the car has been at various locations, things get very murky.
What exactly prompted the second repairer to do a compression test? Was it a precursory thing while the intake manifold was still off? Or was it as a result of the engine misfiring after it went back together?
A couple of things to consider:
Obviously the second repairer had the cam locks. One would assume as you had the car towed there based on the fact that the first repairer didn't have them. If this is the case, surely the second repairer has done this procedure before. I'm not saying they didn't make a mistake, but there is also a good chance they knew how to change a belt and pump successfully.
One or 2 teeth out on these engines does not constitute valve damage. I've personally seen a lot more than that without touching valves.
Water pump issues won't cause a belt to jump as it's driven from the axillary belt, not the timing belt.
A cam snapping back when the belt is removed without cam locks can cause a valve to touch a piston, if any pistons are in the DTC position. Hence my first comment about the first repairer.
A low or no compression situation may have actually been there before anyone touched your car. Low compression may not have been easily identifiable.
If some dirt or something got caught in the valve when the manifold came off, that is something which can be checked easily without too much invasive work to the engine. Usually a simple fix too. There are a number of checks which need to be done before a head comes off. Someone needs to identify the cause of compression loss is it a bottom end issue? Is it a bent valve? Is it something sticking in the valve? If you are trying to point the finger at someone, you need to be clear. Chances are that no one has caused this at all. I'm just saying you need to get all your ducks in a row before trying to get a case together.
I agree, it's a crappy situation. It is for the repairers too. Just be objective about it and deal with facts.
I hope this helps and good luck with it all.
Quote from: Rising Sun on August 25, 2018, 02:34:38 PM
Hi there, I'm a little perplexed with this one because you mentioned the car was towed from the first mechanic to another workshop because the drive belt was already removed. That seems strange because putting a drive belt back is such a simple thing on these cars and wouldn't warrant a tow truck. Am I right in saying that he removed the timing belt, and worked out he needed the tools to put it back together, and hence the tow? FYI, I guess the tools he needed are the cam locks. If that's the case, then it's possible your first mechanic caused valve interference as without the cam locks, the cams can jump/snap out of position when the belt is removed. As has been previously mentioned, because the car has been at various locations, things get very murky.
What exactly prompted the second repairer to do a compression test? Was it a precursory thing while the intake manifold was still off? Or was it as a result of the engine misfiring after it went back together?
The local workshop did the job many times. as I mentioned above his co-worker is in Italy with a tool now. Hence, the local mechanic said he couldn't replace timing belt as it is too risky without a tool, he just removed driving belt.
And Autodelta said "vehicle was pushed into workshop to carry out work. we did now want to start it as we did know know the extent of the water pump failure. Timing belt and water pump was replaced as per the alfa romeo procedure with the cam locking tools. upon completion of the work, we started the vehicle and it was running very poorly. Carried out compression test on engine and found no compression on cylinder 4. suspect timing belt jumped a tooth from water pump failure. requires removal of front cylinder head to inspect damage.
The alfa romeo 3.2 v6 engine is an interface engine and failure of the timing belt results in piston and valve contact."
this is they type the problem on paper, not an estimate. and they suspected a bent valve.
Thanks for your technical point.
My pleasure. That will be a hard one to get around now. But first thing is to determine whether the loss of compression is caused by a valve or bottom end. There a couple of checks the mechanics can do to verify that before the head comes off. Obviously if it's a bent valve, it would not have been caused by a water pump failure. Good luck with it all!!!
To chime in, I'd say the thing to do now is get that car back on a tow truck, take it to Leo at Chileberti's, and get THEM to establish if in fact, there is anything wrong.
This is like a cancer diagnosis right now. What you want is a "2nd opinion" from a trusted doctor.
For the record, I've never dealt with Auto Delta myself.
The damage could have occurred a number of places. Tilt tray operator unlocking the steering, accidentally bumps the starter unless the starter relay was disabled, for one. Or if it's a manual, someone accidentally pushing or rolling the car whilst in gear.
You need to think about what matters to you the most in real terms, and let that guide your actions. Is it your own car particularly which is special to you, or just the type generally? If it was suddenly lost, what would you replace it with?
If interference has occurred inside the motor, it is going to cost a good sum to repair. If you're basically wanting to get that done for nil cost to yourself, it's imperative upon the person tasked with this to get it done quickly and cheaply as possible so their loss is mitigated. This doesn't help you as there's further risk from a comparatively low care factor.
I've never understood the reluctance of people to put in writing, an opinion they're qualified to have. To me, it's cowardice. I have qualifications in a trade, current registration and insurance for that, and I'm not afraid to submit a PDF to a client explaining what I think, and why I think it - nor do I fear it being tested in a legal domain.
A civil claim will get you something, they're frequently settled in court-ordered mediation so you don't usually even need a legal practitioner, but if the other party is financially tight you may have to accept a longer timeframe for payment in the final agreement. I've gone toe-to-toe with irrational aerosols in mediation, and it can be pretty draining - but it's still a faster outcome than putting the claim right through a courtroom.
In the immediate term I suggest acquiring a cheap 147, so you can keep wearing the Alfa Grin.
Quote from: ugame on August 24, 2018, 03:17:29 PMI had a 4x4 specialist once who nearly killed a car I had as they didn't lock tight the nut holding on the harmonic balancer., which then came off (fortunately during startup on our driveway)
In his words he said "I'll understand if you never want me to touch your car again, but I want the opportunity to make this right."
And he did, at no cost to me.
Now there's a mensch, what a genuinely good tale. :D
Quote from: Citroënbender on August 25, 2018, 09:20:04 PM
Quote from: ugame on August 24, 2018, 03:17:29 PMI had a 4x4 specialist once who nearly killed a car I had as they didn't lock tight the nut holding on the harmonic balancer., which then came off (fortunately during startup on our driveway)
In his words he said "I'll understand if you never want me to touch your car again, but I want the opportunity to make this right."
And he did, at no cost to me.
Now there's a mensch, what a genuinely good tale. :D
It's a rare tale.
It was a well known 4x4 specialist in 4x4 circles. Clearly he suffered staff issues on that occasion. My incident being the nail in the coffin for the staff member in question apparently.
He also worked on some of my non 4x4's at the time. Did the clutch job on my 350Z. Slave cylinder had failed. He researched and purchased the exact clutch kit I would have purchased, and did the job flawlessly.
I then also got him to do a service on my Chrysler 300C. Picked it up, drove it around the block and straight back, with a grinding noise from the brakes. He jokingly said "What have you done?"
I laughed and said "I was about to ask you the same thing".
A couple of issues from them doing the brakes on a type of car they'd never worked on before. Again, apologies and fixed everything without even hinting at charging me again.
They're out there. The good ones. But you have to look, and when you find one, you keep it.
SO back on topic, Cileberti Motors are in that category. I'd rather pay a little more, but know I'm only paying once.
EDIT: Incase the above is ambigiouse, I'm saying Cileberti Motors are a good mechanic workshop who stand by their work. :)
Hi guys,
The workshop finally fixed the front cylinder head at their own cost and the front head gasket was pretty bad. So, I had the rear
head gasket replaced at my own cost. Thanks to you guys' advice, everything was settled.
Thanks again.
Good outcome, and good that the shop came to the party too. Happy motoring.
Great outcome!
Thanks for taking the time to come back and update us all.
I was actually thinking about this thread the other day and was going to ask how it was going.