Looking for suggestions here.
The backstory - my workshop colleagues politely suggested that the manual 147 should be re-shocked before re-registering (it's a bit bouncy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK6wOG_aDl8)). I didn't see the point in disagreeing, and bought new genuine strut mounts F&R, plus new front gaiters - all from S4P. Then from Demon Tweeks, I ordered F&R B6s. The order was paid down in June, with expectation they'd be posted on some August date.
DT have informed me the Bilstein B6 struts for the Alfa 147/156 models, are gone; I (well, they) have a pair of rears set aside awaiting post but our holding out for the fronts has now revealed this disappointing truth.
So - practical input is requested per ideas for alternative front shocks with 100K+ mileage lifespan; I've been pondering the Koni yellows but not sure how valid their reputation as "leakers" actually is. Look forward to hearing your ideas.
That is disappointing news regarding Bilsteins...
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The Koni yellows on my 75 3.0 were installed in 1995 by the original owner - I have the receipts! Now due for replacement, they have definitely not leaked.
Had Koni yellows on the 159 for four years with no problems.
Thank you! Why are the old ones expired? internal failure or breakdown of the oil?
My 405 Mi16 has yellows, the rears are now weeping slightly and the fronts are OK but stuck on full soft (mate used a rattle gun on them against better advice). It rides well on standard front springs and the rear torsion bars one notch lower (it's an arse-dragger, ever so slightly).
Also been eyeballing the FSD units, it would be another hundred to upgrade the front pair given my standing credit on the B6s. It's difficult to get informed opinion on the FSD shocks - the vast majority of comments appear issued from the mouths of BMW-piloting numpties. Tirerack rated them well in a three-way test vs OEM and Yellows at full soft (again, sigh, on a BMW).
I had front and rear Koni 'Sports' on the old CB7 Accord. After maybe three (or so) years they lost their gas pressure (at least the rear ones did, discovered when I had the springs off to adjust them harder), and a little later all started to leak a bit. They slowly leaked for quite a long time, but despite this still continued to work quite acceptably. This is on less than wonderful rural roads, I'd expect better on smoother surfaces.
I found these Konis to be quite soft at the lower end of the adjustment range, but much better toward 'full stiff'. They were very stiff at 'full stiff'. I'd use them again, I liked them more than the B6 dampers I have on the front of the 147 (comparing an apple to an orange...).
Regards,
John.
Thank you; I hadn't considered loss of pressure as a failure point.
It should be fairly easy to re-gas, but that's an off-the-car job. Drove the little Pug over the Cattai Ridge Rd and other back ways today, had it largely to myself (westbound) and was noting for a 320000km chassis/motor/box it's not holding up too badly. :) Had put the harshness down to hard tyres and fairly low profile but maybe gas pressure in the struts is part of the issue.
As gas struts loose pressure they loose the ability to quickly react to minor road imperfections. Whilst they may still seem to handle well and soak up the more larger road movements they will feel like you are driving on rough road surfaces all the time.
Sound familiar?
Aye, with the loss of pressure in Citroën spheres the ride gets harsher - it first seems counter-intuitive that higher gas pressures mean a softer ride. :)
And Bazz, feel free to have an opinion on what to substitute for the unavailable kit.
After around 140,000 klm and 25 years of use the yellows are very near retirement. The fronts are about 1/4 turn from full stiff and the rears 2/3 turn from full stiff. Still a bit underdamped so time for new Koni yellows. No hesitation in going for Koni again. A non-adjustable damper will always be a compromise.
Gassing dampers is done to reduce cavitation. If a damper needs high gas presures (wich introduces heaps of design and manufacturing demands), it usually means the damper is sensitive to cavitation. Early KYB and Tokico shocks were notorious for this and needed insanely high gas pressures. Koni have usually gone down the path of low or no gas pressure.
Quote from: Colin Edwards on August 05, 2018, 08:03:12 PM
Gassing dampers is done to reduce cavitation. If a damper needs high gas presures (wich introduces heaps of design and manufacturing demands), it usually means the damper is sensitive to cavitation. Early KYB and Tokico shocks were notorious for this and needed insanely high gas pressures. Koni have usually gone down the path of low or no gas pressure.
Yes this is correct, but it is done for more than just this reason.
Quote from: bazzbazz on August 05, 2018, 07:55:38 PM
As gas struts loose pressure they loose the ability to quickly react to minor road imperfections. Whilst they may still seem to handle well and soak up the more larger road movements they will feel like you are driving on rough road surfaces all the time.
Sound familiar?
I have to say no. The ride didn't feel to be adversely impacted by the pressure loss.
As per Colins' comment, it's my understanding that the gas pressure is primarily to prevent cavitation and consequent foaming of the fluid. If that happens then the damper performance deteriorates drastically, but if it doesn't happen then the damper performance is pretty much unaffected (my understanding only). The hotter the fluid gets the more likely cavitation is likely to be, so my experience with de-pressurised Konis not losing significant performance may be that they never got hot enough to cavitate?
What made a
big difference was how stiffly they were adjusted. They could be adjusted to be fairly soft or very stiff, the range is huge. The 'Sports' damper adjusters are supposed to only have an effect on rebound stiffness with no impact on bump stiffness, but with the konis on the Accord this didn't seem to be true. On the road they felt much stiffer in 'bump' when set to a stiff setting. This was also the case when I 'manually' pushed down hard on the top of the fenders, i.e. set softly and the chassis would push downward quite easily, but set stiffly it was hard to get any significant movement...
I liked them set pretty stiffly, the handling and steering response was way better.
Like most modern 'shocks', the Konis are 'low pressure' 'twin tube' dampers (not sure what psi is used, but not a great deal). Higher pressures aren't typically needed with twin tube dampers (just to stop cavitation). On the othe hand Bilsteins are a 'high pressure' 'mono tube' design, which require very subsantial gas pressures to work properly (hundreds of psi), not only to control cavitation (not sure exactly why this is, just that it's needed for something other than preventing cavitation alone).
Regards,
John.
Quote from: Citroënbender on August 05, 2018, 06:12:44 PM
Thank you; I hadn't considered loss of pressure as a failure point.
It should be fairly easy to re-gas, but that's an off-the-car job.
You'd need to add a Schraeder valve, and use nitrogen. Replacing the pressure seals would also be a good idea, given that the old ones will have leaked. A Koni authorised shop will do this for you at considerable cost (and whatever the turnaround time might be?), but apparently they won't sell you the parts to do it yourself as it is (or was?) Koni policy to not do so...
Quote from: Citroënbender on August 05, 2018, 06:12:44 PM
Had put the harshness down to hard tyres and fairly low profile but maybe gas pressure in the struts is part of the issue.
I doubt it. Your first assumption is probably correct...
Have a read of this:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html
And this:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
Regards,
John.
This is a really interesting thread.
Worth saying but I expect you've already asked, have you tried other suppliers for the shocks ie. EBSpares, Alfaworkshop, S4P themselves?
I had B6 all round in Sooty (156 1.9JTD SW) - firm as fuck!!
Are B4 still available (OEM I think) or the many versions of KONI
Low mileage sets of B6/B8 or B12/14 often come along secondhand when people scrap(run out of talent) cars - check eBay, incl. ebay UK for new old stock perhaps
Indeed there are several NEW sets available from different sellers >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-Bilstein-B6-SPORT-federtragender-Shock-Absorber-Front-Alfa-Romeo-147-937/183302537591?fits=Car+Make%3AAlfa+Romeo%7CModel%3A147&epid=1238038573&hash=item2aadaec177:g:FHIAAOSwtdpa3k-X
No idea if the price is reasonable or the seller is (in)corrigible :)
(I've bought parts from UK eBay many times without issues, caveat emptor and all that)
Interesting reading John, but I don't really have a competitive urge.
I trawled through with an eye to the comments of consistency - and noted multiple references to Bilstein as the author's opined pinnacle of mass-market consistency, followed by Koni.
Craig - I'm in for one lot of postage, DT gave me a week or so (from the 4th) to let them know my choice, before they automatically credit the fronts' price back to my card. If I buy from someone else I'll be in for double the post effectively. That said, I'm still sniffing about. :) Edit, to note almost any other source of new B6 fronts will mean an extra spend of $200-odd.
Wasn't it EB spares who happily bent over to become collectors for the ATO?
Quote from: Craig_m67 on August 06, 2018, 09:15:55 AM
I had B6 all round in Sooty (156 1.9JTD SW) - firm as fuck!!
Are B4 still available (OEM I think) or the many versions of KONI
The B4 is only a 'stock replacement' damper, with close to the stock valving rates. If you want something stiffer than the OE dampers then prepare to be disappointed. I don't know how true this is, but I've heard it said that B4 manufacture is farmed out to some other company, and does not use the same internal high quality components as other dampers in the Bilstein catalogue. I doubt they would be 'bad' dampers, just not true Bilsteins, an attempt to compete with lesser quality (and cheaper) stock replacement products...?
When I purchased my 147 I knew from the test drive that all four dampers would need replacement immediately. I bought four new 'stock replacement' (TRW brand, low pressure gas twin tube like most others). The rear TRWs were and still are quite acceptable (though I would prefer it if they were at least a tad stiffer), but the front ones were bloody hopeless from new. Just way too soft, lacking the stiffness needed to control the suspension and body motion. The ride was harsh because of the rampant suspension oscillation and also 'bouncy', just like the OE ones that I had just binned...
A pair of B6s for the front was a huge improvement, even though I think the B6 rebound valving is still a bit too soft for my taste. If they were Konis I'd just turn the 'knob' clockwise until happy...
Regards,
John.
Quote from: Citroënbender on August 06, 2018, 09:29:09 AM
Interesting reading John, but I don't really have a competitive urge.
Maybe not, but the comments are still pertinent I think.
Have you investigated the availability of Bistein B8 dampers for the rear? The valving is the same as the B6, but the damper is shorter, intended for use with lowering springs. If fitted with stock height springs then you would have some 'additional' bump travel, and somewhat reduced rebound travel (keeping in mind a
possibility of the coils becoming 'coil bound' at full 'droop', though if this occured you could add extra bump stop thickness).
This probably wouldn't be a good thing for the front end (where we want to minmise weight transfer between both front wheels as much as possible, to limit understeer), but not so bad for the rear end, keeping in mind that FWD cars with stiffened suspension (e.g. racing cars) often have so much rear roll stiffness that they will corner hard with the inside rear wheel hanging in the air. I've heard it said that for a FWD car it can actually be a 'good thing' to reduce the "excessive" stock amount of 'droop' motion at the rear end...
FWIW, the 20mm rear ARB on my 147 is so stiff that on some driveway entrances (taken at an angle) I can feel the 'inside rear' wheel lift off the road, the car then momentarily 'teetering' on the 'outside rear' and 'inside front' diagonal axis. That the front end has a stiffer GTA ARB probably adds to this affect. It's never a problem. With such a stiff rear ARB, it's not unlikely that the inside rear suspension never reaches full droop during hard cornering (even if the inside rear wheel lifts off the road, which I'm not sure it does, but possibly), the high stiffness of the ARB strongly coupling the inside rear suspension with the 'bump' motion of the outside rear suspension not permitting it to do so.
Regards,
John.
It's only the fronts that are vexing me. I'll press DT again just in case they can scare up a set of B6. Else my least cost options from this point forward are in order, B4, Koni Yellow, Koni FSD.
The preload squeezing standard springs into short shocks is IMO excessive (I've done this as a quick fix once before to a 147), and I'm not going to lower the car. So B8 are out.
My desire for B6 shocks is based on the 147 Sele I fitted with same, it's far from a perfect ride but streets ahead of standard (which in slightly-worn guise is pretty average); I want durability - something that was not a strength of the OEM kit, have no desire to tinker and won't be changing wheels or tyres from the standard spec.
Should I make a crap decision ultimately on the shocks, I'll say as much - even if it's carefully worded - and won't hold others responsible for my final choice. It's not an iPhone battery. ;)
Quote from: Citroënbender on August 06, 2018, 02:03:22 PM
It's only the fronts that are vexing me. I'll press DT again just in case they can scare up a set of B6. Else my least cost options from this point forward are in order, B4, Koni Yellow, Koni FSD.
Without ever having tried them, I suspect you'll find the
rear B4s to be at best 'OK'. They are more or less 'stock replacement', and IMO the stock rates for the rear dampers are acceptable, if not quite 'there' for a 'sports' oriented suspension (cannot say that for the stock rate front dampers, which were just hopeless and couldn't be tolerated...).
I still have 'stock replacement' TRWs on the rear of my car, and while I'd prefer something a bit 'taughter', they are not so bad that I can justify replacing them with something better (and considerably more expensive). In double wheel compression / extension they do bounce a little bit (e.g. speed humps, and similar 'obstacles' that involve both rear wheels simultaneously). I most notice their deficiency when there is a full load of passengers, or even just one passenger in the rear seat. I suspect other brand 'stock rated' rear dampers would be fairly similar (but cannot say for certain).
I have no experience with the FSDs, though I've read mixed reports of them fitted to various cars. Trying to be all things to all drivers and not quite managing to be so is the impression I have (though many reports are good, some are not quite so good). If you can stretch to the 'Yellows', then I think that will likely be your best choice, thay can be quite soft or quite stiff, adjusted for personal taste. Other than that, there is the 'coilover' option with a number of different products available from relatively cheap to quite expensive, and probably a lucky dip of stiffness, quality and effectiveness (I wouldn't know where to start...). From what I glean on the interweb, cheaper 'coilovers' can tend to be somewhat over-springed, somewhat under-damped, and somewhat short lived. I'm sure there are some good ones out there...
Quote from: Citroënbender on August 06, 2018, 02:03:22 PM
My desire for B6 shocks is based on the 147 Sele I fitted with same, it's far from a perfect ride but streets ahead of standard (which in slightly-worn guise is pretty average); I want durability - something that was not a strength of the OEM kit, have no desire to tinker and won't be changing wheels or tyres from the standard spec.
It's not just "in slightly-worn guise", even when brand new the front stock rated TRWs were just appallingly bad. I can't say for sure whether this would be the same for other 'stock rated' brands, but I'd bet it more than likely would be. It amazes me that such poorly rated front dampers were fitted in the first place...
My issue with the B6 is that I think they are still just a bit too soft in rebound. This is only from my experience with B6s on the front suspension, rears may be better?
Regards,
John.
I'll recap.
Already the rear B6s are set aside for me, and I have no plan to change this detail.
I have these on the Sele car, they are quite firm (at the expense of some ride comfort two-up) but I am confident they would cope well with heavier loads. I once ferried four elderly women home in the manual 147 after their Corolla was written off in front of me by an apprentice sparkie running a red light, and the suspension bottomed out several times whilst we were five up.
The front B6s, now unavailable, made up $374 on the order without freight in consideration.
A change to Koni yellows would add $90 to my $374, and a change to FSD would add a hundred to the $374. I note the great disparity between apparent warranty on Koni yellow and FSD here and in the US. Disappointing, to say the least.
To buy front B6s elsewhere if they are actually still in stock would cost me $570 minimum, this figure will almost certainly exceed $600 by the time I suffer a rubbish exchange rate on the back credit from DT and the card provider's 1.5% international payment fee on the new sale.
I should have been clearer.
I suspect that you would probably find B4 Bilsteins to be a regrettable choice for the front suspension (though not too bad at the rear, if one had to have them). This is only premised upon the B4 being 'stock replacement', likely to be quite similar to other brands that are also stock replacement, i.e. have fairly similar bump / rebound stiffness to the OE dampers (Boge?), which are not up to the job.
I think 'Yellows' will be a good choice for the front suspension, possibly better than the B6 due to the tailorable stiffness. I also think B6 are very likely to be a good choice for the rear suspension, considering that stock rated dampers aren't too bad in the rear, and the B6s will be quite appreciably stiffer than that.
Regards,
John.
Hmm....
Well we've just placed a stock order with Bilstein and the B6 shocks for the 147/156 are available, unless we ordered the last ones....
We won't have the stock until end of October.
That is interesting! Thank you!
I suspect DT buy through some indirect arrangement, maybe their intermediary is dropping the line - excerpt of their latest comms quoted following.
QuoteWe have been informed by our suppliers that the B6 ALFA ROMEO VARIOUS SPRING-BEARING DAMPER FRONT 24-027960 has now unfortunately been discontinued, therefore we can no longer supply this item.
Why the show stopper with changing supplier??
Just cancel the original order (they can't supply in full!) and go with somebody who can; Bilstein Aust., Domenic, eBayUK.
... plenty of good suppliers out there.
The $200-odd difference if I change suppliers. My all-in price was very keen, and I want to ensure it remains good value.
Here:
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-andamp-gt/368138-bilstein-b8s-first-impresson-3.html
'Fruity' is suggesting that the B6 drought may break soon...
Regards,
John.
CB, my son is in exactly the same situation with DT.
I think he has been told by Bilstein UK that the B12 kits will be available again next month.
We are thinking that they should be a reliable source of info given that they are a dedicated seller of Bilstein products.
I hope we're right...
https://www.bilstein-shocks.co.uk/
Why Citroenbender? In my mind I am going through many scenarios.
I've bent two by pilot error, been rear ended twice, T-boned in a rather spectacular hit/run and further to all that, once bought an already bent Citroën. Quite a boring set of reasons, really.
Shocks have been chosen and the order locked in, I'll do a "reveal" once the parcel is received. :)
I couldn't accept the possibility of waiting for a definite maybe (as per the Sam Goldwyn quote), a large portion of my life is presently taken up courtesy of people putting things off unnecessarily, even unhelpfully. And if my shocks choice is crap, I'll say so and why I think this. Even so, it will inevitably be better than what is there now. 8)
Quote from: Citroënbender on August 11, 2018, 06:14:52 PM
I've bent two by pilot error
Funny, when I read that this image of you popped into my head -
(https://artlords-artwork.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/image/1152/display_KAMIKAZEHR.png)
;D ;D ;D
Better gnashers than mine. :P
There's a low mileage set available on ausalfa....
http://www.ausalfa.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30431
Wow, price is keen. Well spotted.
Should I buy another 147 to put them on?
I didn't realise you had found some B6 fronts yet - thought these might be a cheap alternative for you until they're available (new) again.
I didn't buy B6 fronts, the car is in it's 90 day grace period between lapse of rego and cancellation, and I didn't feel like going through the whole roadworthy caper after maybe/maybe not finding some unicorn eggs. So the decision was to buy something else, fit with the new genuine strut tops and gaiters, and get back to enjoying the car on the road, as opposed to in the driveway. :)
(I am mostly enjoying the 405 Pug, it has niggles aplenty but also smiles to make up for them.)
Hopefully Ric will bag these shocks you found.
I've finally fitted the rear B6 dampers to the Crash Magnet, it's sort of bemusing to go within 24 hours from pitching and wallowing to almost harsh in firmness.
As to the fronts, eventually I chose Koni FSD as an experiment, with new genuine bump stops/gaiters and top hats.
Hoping to have them in by middle of next week, it's somewhat dependant on whether I outsource the reassembly of the struts or DIY.
Very interesting topic . I bought sooty off Craig and have now transplanted the b6 into a 156 sedan for track purposes. I totally don't understand that the height on the sedan now sits higher than even the original . It's got me stuffed. Having said that it handles very well and was able to get a third place in a recent street sprint out of 8 cars that all should have beat me. Anyone got any ideas why that would be.
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Are you still using Sooty?
(Might want it back)
Yes I do. Was pumping horrendous black smoke. Sooty. Decided to retire it and take gta wheels and shocks and put on track car. I know it's a tragedy but still have it . Yours if you want.
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Quote from: 105greg on May 10, 2019, 09:20:54 PM
Yes I do. Was pumping horrendous black smoke. Sooty. Decided to retire it and take gta wheels and shocks and put on track car. I know it's a tragedy but still have it . Yours if you want.
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Done, is she registered?
Call me :)
Oh for the love of . . . . . . ::)
;D
Oh Craig it has suffered a serious injustice. Will call you tomorrow. What's yr number. Pm me. gregsimpson5@bigpond.com 0449009893.
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Quote from: bazzbazz on May 10, 2019, 09:49:04 PM
Oh for the love of . . . . . . ::)
;D
Bazz. U know.
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Nothing we (bazz....) can't fix with a Giulietta transplant
Just tell me her body is still straight ;D
Absolutely as straight as the day you sold it to me.
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By the way. Can anyone explain my previous question. Really intrigues me. Why does the sedan sit higher than normal on straight swap from the wagons b6 shocks . Have I done something wrong somewhere. I would estimate 15mm higher ride height from the swap to the sedan . I have also compared ride height from a standard 156 sedan , same equation. I'm stuffed if I know.
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Are the spring seats exactly the same height from the lower mount bolts?
Quote from: Citroënbender on May 16, 2019, 09:22:50 PM
Are the spring seats exactly the same height from the
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I believe it is. All I did was a straight swap. It's bizarre, no doubt there's a stuff up somewhere. I did check specs on bilsteins compared wagon to sedan , evidently same , the wagon came from Europe personal import and is a diesel not brought into the country. Having said that I measured lower arms and are same. Something missing somewhere. Could be my lack of understanding.
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Small addendum here, finally onto the front strut rebuild.
The Koni FSD fronts have the lower spring seat 10mm approximately higher up the shock body than the OE 2001 standard shocks. So the preload will be a little greater, as will the ride height. If I had a matched pair of facelift front coils, I would fit them.
The old shocks are stuffed, oil has broken down and leaked, feels like the bore is galled also. There's crude buffing to the top seal retainer from regular impact by the bump stop.