Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 116 Series (Alfetta Sedan/GT/GTV & Giulietta Sedan) => Topic started by: Scott Farquharson on March 19, 2018, 12:04:13 AM

Title: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 19, 2018, 12:04:13 AM
Ive just picked up an Alfetta GT that is compliance plated as GT however it appears to have all the GTAM parts and appears to have had the fuel injected engine.  It has the big fuel tank with original mounts, return fuel line looks factory, fuel pressure regulator mounting, fuel pump, injected cold start cable and so on. It has a 11611 chassis number, no 3207 with 6/76 on compliance plate.

I'll attach photos, hoping that the GTAM experts could assist in working out this mystery. It was to be a parts car but after looking at it, it is probably worth saving so I'd like to unravel the history.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 19, 2018, 01:19:24 AM
Ive got to resize photos.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: LukeC on March 19, 2018, 08:01:21 AM
I will admit it has been over 20 years since I saw one, but I seem to remember they actually had ALFETTA GTAM on the compliance plate. Cool Jesus has one, and Festy's uncle (I think) has one of the ones I have worked on (ex-Gulson/Canberra car).

The cold start was not a cable from the factory. I assume this is the one Monza had on Fleabay... Does it have the injection or injection timing cover?
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 19, 2018, 02:22:08 PM
congrats I think it is a gtam right month  send photo of compliance where did you score it from
I tried to get one recently but to no avail
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 19, 2018, 02:38:54 PM
As per the original post, its not compliance plated as a GTAM but yes it is a 6/76 build. Once I can resize photos, I'll post.

Engine is not original, so no injection equip. 

Yes, got it from Hugh.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: vin sharp on March 20, 2018, 10:15:40 PM
Hi Scott,
As they were an Alfa Australia invention, the GTAM was the normal GT compliance plate with AM added on some cars, but not all depending on when , where  or if they could be bothered perhaps! So far as I recall, only 1.8 was being made in RHD at that time so in order to run 2.0lt engine in touring cars racing here, they secured US 2.0lt Spica California emission engines (as they were the 2.0lt 116 engines in production at the time) and plonked them in 25 RHD bodies to come here. I'm not sure what the local tag of GTAM ever really had to do with the cars, other than reference the US emissions engine, all of which were eventually converted to carbs for the track anyway as the emission engine was hopeless. I remember going with Dad to road test one at Talbot Motors & its performance was awful compared to the 1.8 Sedan they also had available for test drives!
All these cars had the GT slatted C-pillar vent rather than the usual GTV item, as RHD GTV didn't exist (here) yet, so there is no reason to think that any markings other than a regular Alfetta GT would be on the shell.
Cheers,
Vin.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 21, 2018, 12:06:15 PM
this is a plate from one I was trying to buy


http://car-from-uk.com/ebay/carphotos/full/ebay141363364045148.jpg
http://car-from-uk.com/ebay/carphotos/full/ebay141363365378480.jpg
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: poohbah on March 21, 2018, 12:22:42 PM
What happened to it Carlo? I saw you had bid on that one on the UK website (it was in Pymble though wasn't it?). The bids still show up online.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 21, 2018, 12:46:22 PM
No i think it was a scam
never heard from from anyone over it
but this info was gold
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: poohbah on March 21, 2018, 12:56:58 PM
That's a shame. At US$1000, it looked like a bargain!
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 22, 2018, 08:17:28 AM
Thanks Vin, the bit that confused me was no AM on the compliance plate, but other than that all the AM bits are there (bar the motor).  But if they weren't that rigorous with the plate then that would make sense.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 22, 2018, 11:59:36 AM
 scott what is the number build on  the plate they were sequential so not so sure !
the other way i beleive is to measure by jacking the rear and checking
the 5th gear ratio
where is fuel tank located and the battery
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 22, 2018, 12:22:21 PM
good news scott found this in the us site
We have now had a good chance to look over this car, the one recently in Western Australia (with GTAM plates) as described by Andrew M.

Judging by the original modifications made to the car it is most similar to the Autodelta Grp 2 cars. It bears Chassis # 11611-0003206 and originally logged as a Alfetta GTAm in deference to the limited run of RHD 2L Spica GT's imported contemporaneously. All the chassis and suspension modifications are as described for the Grp 2 cars and all the parts with the exception of the engine were at one time present. The engine origiginally fitted was the Spica injected 2L Nord as required by Australian Production Touring Car (Group C) rules at the time. It appears to me some of the chassis mods may have stretched the letter of the law as far as the rules are concerned, but hey, what of it 34 years down the track. It initially ran as a narrow body car but grew the Grp 2 flares later and finally ended with the Grp 4 rally flares. Should it then be known as the Autodelta GTAm Corsa? And it's all still there with the exception of the alloy (ergon) lower arms that were apparently accident damaged in the '80's. More photo's when I get the car home from Giulia_Veloce.


this is the car immediatly before yours so yes I think you have a group c car even better than the gtam or same
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Paul Newby on March 22, 2018, 01:17:00 PM
good news scott found this in the us site
We have now had a good chance to look over this car, the one recently in Western Australia (with GTAM plates) as described by Andrew M.

Judging by the original modifications made to the car it is most similar to the Autodelta Grp 2 cars. It bears Chassis # 11611-0003206 and originally logged as a Alfetta GTAm in deference to the limited run of RHD 2L Spica GT's imported contemporaneously. All the chassis and suspension modifications are as described for the Grp 2 cars and all the parts with the exception of the engine were at one time present. The engine origiginally fitted was the Spica injected 2L Nord as required by Australian Production Touring Car (Group C) rules at the time. It appears to me some of the chassis mods may have stretched the letter of the law as far as the rules are concerned, but hey, what of it 34 years down the track. It initially ran as a narrow body car but grew the Grp 2 flares later and finally ended with the Grp 4 rally flares. Should it then be known as the Autodelta GTAm Corsa? And it's all still there with the exception of the alloy (ergon) lower arms that were apparently accident damaged in the '80's. More photo's when I get the car home from Giulia_Veloce.


this is the car immediatly before yours so yes I think you have a group c car even better than the gtam or same

Chassis 3206 is the Group C Alfetta GTAm that belongs to Bill Magoffin, currently in Gil Gordon colours. It was entered by Autodelta (Australia) Pty for Richard Carter/John Leffler at the 1976 Bathurst 1000. I know this car well and written about it in Australian Muscle car magazine as well as Amatori Alfa, the NSW club magazine. It has all the Group 2 Autodelta gear that it raced with in period (gearbox, brakes, adjustable torsion bar, etc). There were two other GTAm at Bathurst that year. The Frank Porter "Clemens" Alfetta and the Brian Foley entered Alfetta for Marie-Claude Beaumont/Christine Gibson. I'm not sure what became of the Porter car but I'm pretty sure that the Foley car was converted back to road spec and sold on. I know that ex-Foley mechanic Steve Perkins showed me photos of this car and even dyno sheets from Town and Country at Hornsby, but I haven't seen a log book for it and I don't  recall anyone knowing what the chassis number was.

I wouldn't get too worked up with sequential chassis numbers - I've seen GTAM compliance plates for #1949, #1954 (on Alfa forums) and a logbook for #2496 (sold by Foleys in Dec 76) and someone else (on a forum) said they had #3505. A 1900 chassis was most likely built in 1975, but all these cars would have been Australian Compliance 06/76 - the last month before ADR27A came in and the last month for GTs.

While we are on GTs - the ex-Peter Wherrett Pye sponsored GT (Am?) exists in much modified sports sedan form. The ex-Evan Green Group 4 Alfetta GT rally car became the Tony Edmondson Alfetta sports sedan that was destroyed at Surfers Paradise in 1979.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 22, 2018, 06:03:29 PM
Yeah, chassis sequence was Mario and Luigi running out to the lot to grab the nearest US GTs as they were being loaded for export. Didn't know about the 'Am' being omitted on some compliance plates though.

Where did you find this one?

Hurry up with the pics!
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 22, 2018, 06:17:27 PM
what chassis number do you have cool jesus
because the only other i have seen is 1954
and Paul quite rightly said the 1900 series are built in1975
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: vin sharp on March 22, 2018, 11:10:21 PM
The Beninca Alfetta GTAM was written off against the old Dunlop bridge at Sandown as I recall, then stripped of parts & shell scrapped.
Somewhere I have a period magazine article on the Wherret Alfetta sports sedan & I think it says built from a near new ( executive's) car from Alfa's Sydney headquarters, no mention F.I. model.
With the sole exception of the single Autodelta built actual race car, all the others were landed just stock road cars assembled with whatever bits needed to use a 2.0 capacity engine for our racing. I suspect the fuel tank between the shock towers was just the regular US road version that had all the appropriate fuel return & vent line outlets to match the Spica injection; - no "big race tank for better weight distribution" special parts, just ordinary US emission & crash regs stuff because it fitted the job off the shelf.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: poohbah on March 23, 2018, 01:33:25 AM
I was at the Shannon's car show in Perth on the weekend and there was s 2.0L GTV race car on display that was described as being a Peter wherret prepared car. Looked the business. I think it had something like 180 bhp.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: aggie57 on March 23, 2018, 07:29:08 AM
The Beninca Alfetta GTAM was written off against the old Dunlop bridge at Sandown as I recall, then stripped of parts & shell scrapped.
Somewhere I have a period magazine article on the Wherret Alfetta sports sedan & I think it says built from a near new ( executive's) car from Alfa's Sydney headquarters, no mention F.I. model.
With the sole exception of the single Autodelta built actual race car, all the others were landed just stock road cars assembled with whatever bits needed to use a 2.0 capacity engine for our racing. I suspect the fuel tank between the shock towers was just the regular US road version that had all the appropriate fuel return & vent line outlets to match the Spica injection; - no "big race tank for better weight distribution" special parts, just ordinary US emission & crash regs stuff because it fitted the job off the shelf.

Iíve taken a bit of an interest in these US cars since arriving here and youíre right Vin, there are a lot more differences than just the engine and tank. The shells themselves are different, the bumpers require different front and rear panels. The front apron is different in another way as the indicators mount on the bumper rather than in the body like Australian or European cars. Then they have different dashboards with additional buttons and switches, and have side repeaters front and rear for the indicators.  Did these 25 Bathurst homologation specials have those bits as well?
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 23, 2018, 09:28:57 AM
Itís been a while since Iíve looked at my Alfetta. Really need to pull my finger out. Anyway, from what I recall, these 25 Alfetta were quickly put together and rushed over to Aus. They were actually being delivered at Bathurst the day or night before the race. I can only imagine that 25 US bound Alfetta were quickly pulled randomly off the line or lit. Converted to RHD and shipped by the quickest route. The teams had bigger all time to prep and they werenít very effective as a result. I think there were 2 or 3 entered, donít shoot me here, Iím just going of my poor memory.
Iíll have to get back to you with my chassis number. Actually, search my posts here. I did a big write up on my search for this Alfetta. Iím sure the chassis number is on that thread. In any case Iím keeping a record of the Alfetta GT Am chassis numbers that I do come across for a small bio I will be doing on this anomaly of an Alfa.
They did swap over a few other bits also to make it more ADR appropriate for importation. Itís such an Aussie story though, of rushing it through with a sheíll be right mentality of back in the day.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Paul Newby on March 23, 2018, 11:23:05 AM
All of these 25 Alfetta GTAM are 116 11 cars - original RHD GT shells - no indicators on bumpers or rear side repeaters - they just look like a garden variety Australian spec GT.

Our GTAMs had the US 2.0 Spica engine and centrally mounted fuel tank fitted to RHD shells. The only other difference I think was an additional warning light on the dash for the fuel injection or similar.

The GTAM homologation was all about using a 2.0 engine in a racing Alfetta, but in hindsight they should have waited until 1977 when the Alfetta GTV 2.0 was released and just used the 105 2000 GTV for the 76 Bathurst 1000. Unfortunately marketing priorities got in the way of common sense....  :)

Cool Jesus, I've included your chassis number in my previous post - 1949.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 23, 2018, 10:25:02 PM
It certainly makes sense to just swap motors out of the Aus spec GT, stands to reason really. OK, saves me looking up my files for the chassis. I went and inspected that Alfetta GTAm that was for sale a few years ago on pymble. The seller wasnít an Alfisti, he was just a collector of anything really. I think he was a brick a brick antiques dealer or something. He knew he had something with that Alfetta which was in really poor shape. I low balled him, and he wasnít playing at all. Donít know who bought it. Nobody on the forums fessed up and nobodies noticed it since that I have read. Hopefully itís not just rusting way as it was in pymble. Thereís less that a handful of this oddity left as it is.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: vin sharp on March 24, 2018, 12:22:11 AM
I was at the Shannon's car show in Perth on the weekend and there was s 2.0L GTV race car on display that was described as being a Peter wherret prepared car. Looked the business. I think it had something like 180 bhp.
Last I heard about 6 months ago from a guy working on the Wherret GTV sports sedan, it was in central NSW. So I'm not sure of you are talking about the same car. The original Wherret GTV was & is turbo-charged and is very much a modified sports sedan with Gp4 flares, wings etc.
I still have its original Autodelta 16 valve monosleeve engine in my garage. I also had the Autodelta close ratio trans axle too, but sold it some years back to Richard Anderson in QLD for a historic rally GTV Gp4 project.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: poohbah on March 24, 2018, 12:21:39 PM
I wish I'd paid more attention to it - didn't really do more than glance at it, and just recall the reference to Wherrett on the placard. The bonnet was down, so it may have been a turbo. It had typical red, white, green livery and was part of the veteran racing club display.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 25, 2018, 10:00:41 PM
Compliance Plate
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 25, 2018, 10:06:55 PM
And the rest
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 25, 2018, 10:18:16 PM
And a few more
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 25, 2018, 10:40:58 PM
Plate from my Blue 1975 GT
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 26, 2018, 10:58:47 AM
i dont think it was one of the 25 personally
but it does have an interesting production number
thats worth investigating
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 26, 2018, 12:06:54 PM
What's interesting is that the AM "bits" are original, ie they haven't been added in after.  For example the fuel tank mounts are original and look exactly the same as others I've seen.  The way the fuel pres reg is mounted.

One other interesting point is the "splitter" on the fuel tank inlet to allow the bottam tank to be used.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: vin sharp on March 27, 2018, 09:27:51 AM
I guess it's possible that they assembled a couple of spare cars ( in case the Italians 'lost" one en route? :) ).
It looks in general to fit the bill, perhaps when they officially logged 25 on the ground here the others if any weren't bothered to be officially plated as GTAM.   In any case dealers just sold them as  Alfetta GTs, no big deal made about it & in fact I've heard of several people who didn't know their car was any different anyone else's.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Paul Newby on March 27, 2018, 10:14:56 AM
All of the Alfetta GTAMs that I have seen have been Alfa Red Ė Iíve never seen another colour.

They are all 6/76 Australian Compliance and should have GTAM on the plate, although there may be some exceptions. Alfisti in the past have got excited about these cars because of the GTAM name but they really are of curiosity value only. Now if there were sold with a pukka Autodelta (narrow angle) 2.0 it would be a different story Ė Iíve heard rumours that Alfa Romeo Australia naively thought they could race this engine in Australian Group CÖ  :)

Maybe an original GTAM with its Spica engine intact is worth a bit more than a normal GT, but it would be no quicker and harder to tune than a standard GT.

The Holy Grail is the Foley Alfa Group C Alfetta GTAM Ė maybe itís still out there? Interestingly we have a club member up here in NSW who has a GTAM delivered by Brian Foley on 24 December 1976. Iíve seen the original logbook but not the car in the flesh.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: aggie57 on March 27, 2018, 12:02:23 PM
I did wonder about that tank filler Scott, but don't know enough about these cars to know how unusual that piece is.  Looks odd for sure - it looks like the under floor tank is still there as well? 
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 27, 2018, 12:41:51 PM
I think you got a race preped Group C car
not an AM
One better
thats the 100 litre fuel system Bathurst style
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Dna Dave on March 27, 2018, 12:55:41 PM
Any signs that it ever had a roll cage?
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Paul Newby on March 27, 2018, 03:03:01 PM
I think you got a race preped Group C car
not an AM
One better
thats the 100 litre fuel system Bathurst style

The fuel tank in Scott's GT is the same as in the GTAM of Cool Jesus. According to his thread it is a 49 litre tank that was fitted to all US market Alfetta GTs.

Check out his thread: http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=8122.0
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 27, 2018, 07:01:25 PM
Sorry i probably should have elaborated yes Paul you are correct
but I did read somewhere that some of the group C cars fitted what was to become the v6 tank
Ūn tandem, with the original 45ltr tank and with the tubing
they called this the bathurst 100 ltr tank
the idea being that they were not as fast but didnt have stop as often
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 27, 2018, 07:28:12 PM
Looks like Carlo has shed some light on this Alfetta with the second tank. It may not be a GTAm, but it could well be a race prep'd Alfetta after the '76 Bathurst 1000. Dig deeper mate, I'd start looking at entered vehicles in '77, '78 and see if you can match a chassis. Though I think the Alfettas run was short lived, the teams had better results with the previous 105s.

I can definitely say that My Alfetta doesn't have the lower tank. The hole through the rear pan is blocked off with a metal panel. The 2.0L Alfettas came in almost straight after the race, only they didn't want to miss the boat, so to speak, at the possibility of the promising results being achieved with the 1.8 (or was it 1.6) Alfetta to add some extra HP and being able to qualify with a 2.0, so they rushed through the 25 Alfettas for homologation. The actual 2.0L (Aus Carb engines) were due for delivery after the '76 Bathurst.

Have you sent an email off to Alfa Historical? That may shed some light on when it was exported, engine type, etc? Although the compliance is 6/76. Maybe the SPICA powerplant was completely removed for a worked carb version? Very curious. I'll check my file and see if there may be a better tell tale on whether or not its the SPICA version.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 27, 2018, 07:48:49 PM
Just had a closer look at your photos Scott. The valve cover is definitely not off a SPICA engine, they had these plastic holders riveted on each side near the front for heating up air intake. But valve covers were interchangeable. The exhaust manifold looks performance oriented, an easy add on for SPICA. I can't tell off the bat, but SPICAS had a specific water pump to allow for the SPICA pump. There was also a cogged gear on the crank to run that pump which I believe was behind the harmonic. If these arent there, then the engine is definitely either an AUS spec 2.0L or a refit (ie remove the SPICA for a full carb engine). Keep in mind that Alfa closely guarded the secrets of the SPICA, so absolutely no one could play around with them. They feared losing their US export market with emissions and as a guarantee that divulge zero info on the SPICA. So much so, that any suspected issue required the whole unit be sent to Alfa for assessment and rectification (if req'd). The end result was the cheaper option of swapping it out for carbs.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 28, 2018, 02:21:07 PM
Hi all,

Thanks for the great feedback and insights. I absolutely understand there's no "premium" for the car, it's more about just understanding this interesting (but flawed) piece of Alfa history, I think the 25 homologation specials do have a interesting place in Alfa Australia motorsport history.

The fuel tank is the standard AM/USA tank, however it's the extra tank splitter that is interesting - there's no lower tank fitted, but it looks like it's had one. 

The engine is definitely not a SPICA, the prior owner swears it originally had a spica engine but it was swapped out in it's entirety, the car however has all the ancillary spica related stuff such as the cold start cable, fuel pump, fuel return line, fuel pres reg mount etc 

I was also thinking it could have been an extra, ie they built 26 or 27 just in case, but asked for 25 compliance plates and attached the plates to the first 25, then std GT plates to the spares.  Given the urgency of getting them here it's not unreasonable to think they brought an extra.  Its a theory.

Another item of interest (I'll post a picture) is that its fitted with an old (period) single mount race harness along with the standard seat belt on the drivers side. Now, not trying to fuel the "its an old Group C car...fire) it's just another interesting feature that may help identify it.

Again, thanks for the input.

Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 28, 2018, 02:58:40 PM
The Beninca Alfetta GTAM was written off against the old Dunlop bridge at Sandown as I recall, then stripped of parts & shell scrapped.
Somewhere I have a period magazine article on the Wherret Alfetta sports sedan & I think it says built from a near new ( executive's) car from Alfa's Sydney headquarters, no mention F.I. model.
With the sole exception of the single Autodelta built actual race car, all the others were landed just stock road cars assembled with whatever bits needed to use a 2.0 capacity engine for our racing. I suspect the fuel tank between the shock towers was just the regular US road version that had all the appropriate fuel return & vent line outlets to match the Spica injection; - no "big race tank for better weight distribution" special parts, just ordinary US emission & crash regs stuff because it fitted the job off the shelf.

Was that the Frank Porter car from Bathurst 76/77?  Did they convert this to a "GTV" after 77? Or did they run a new 2L GTV?
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 28, 2018, 03:18:05 PM
Hi all,

Thanks for the great feedback and insights. I absolutely understand there's no "premium" for the car, it's more about just understanding this interesting (but flawed) piece of Alfa history, I think the 25 homologation specials do have a interesting place in Alfa Australia motorsport history.

The fuel tank is the standard AM/USA tank, however it's the extra tank splitter that is interesting - there's no lower tank fitted, but it looks like it's had one. 

The engine is definitely not a SPICA, the prior owner swears it originally had a spica engine but it was swapped out in it's entirety, the car however has all the ancillary spica related stuff such as the cold start cable, fuel pump, fuel return line, fuel pres reg mount etc 

I was also thinking it could have been an extra, ie they built 26 or 27 just in case, but asked for 25 compliance plates and attached the plates to the first 25, then std GT plates to the spares.  Given the urgency of getting them here it's not unreasonable to think they brought an extra.  Its a theory.

Another item of interest (I'll post a picture) is that its fitted with an old (period) single mount race harness along with the standard seat belt on the drivers side. Now, not trying to fuel the "its an old Group C car...fire) it's just another interesting feature that may help identify it.

Again, thanks for the input.

OK Scott, had a look at my research files. Good news or bad news?
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 28, 2018, 03:25:05 PM
Hi all,

Thanks for the great feedback and insights. I absolutely understand there's no "premium" for the car, it's more about just understanding this interesting (but flawed) piece of Alfa history, I think the 25 homologation specials do have a interesting place in Alfa Australia motorsport history.

The fuel tank is the standard AM/USA tank, however it's the extra tank splitter that is interesting - there's no lower tank fitted, but it looks like it's had one. 

The engine is definitely not a SPICA, the prior owner swears it originally had a spica engine but it was swapped out in it's entirety, the car however has all the ancillary spica related stuff such as the cold start cable, fuel pump, fuel return line, fuel pres reg mount etc 

I was also thinking it could have been an extra, ie they built 26 or 27 just in case, but asked for 25 compliance plates and attached the plates to the first 25, then std GT plates to the spares.  Given the urgency of getting them here it's not unreasonable to think they brought an extra.  Its a theory.

Another item of interest (I'll post a picture) is that its fitted with an old (period) single mount race harness along with the standard seat belt on the drivers side. Now, not trying to fuel the "its an old Group C car...fire) it's just another interesting feature that may help identify it.

Again, thanks for the input.

OK Scott, had a look at my research files. Good news or bad news?

There's no bad news...

Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 28, 2018, 03:43:59 PM
Yes there is, the bad news is your missing your SPICA engine! Even worse, you don't have the GTAm stamped on your plate, damn....

I have just added your find to my GTAm list mate. Congrats, you found one. I'm confident enough to say your the 5th GTAm I've now come across that hasn't disappeared. So, as Vin mentioned, they did missout on the special GTAm stamp on some. Not that I want to absolutely blow your mind, however your chassis is the next consecutive number from the alleged AUTODELTA Alfetta (I'm yet to confirm its AUTODELTA authenticity) I have on my list !!!

Dig deeper mate, I think you may have something. Get a hold of rego plate details and do a search with motor transport for all historical data. Its only a few bucks to get some valuable research info. Definately send off an email to Alfa Historical, Marco's email is on the forum somewhere. Info from him will also add to authenticity.

Arghhh, so happy for you mate, but disappointed that I didn't find it first.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 28, 2018, 03:49:53 PM
Wouldn't hurt to pop into Bathurst museum one day to check out the race line ups for 76 and a year or 2 after.
CAMS my be able to assist with log book (if it was). If its not an ex Bathurst Group C, it would certainly have been raced with the extra tank hook up, extractors and now harness anchor points. Its also safe to say that all 25 imported Alfetta GTAms were Alfa Red too.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: CitroŽnbender on March 28, 2018, 08:09:13 PM
This is a great read; lots of trivia to soak up. Nice to see someone has done better than they expected, and without avarice.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 28, 2018, 09:25:57 PM
Hey Scott, it must be an omen, look what just popped up on an Alfa group I'm following on FB. Some poms are are digesting it. Its the Alfetta that was on the shop line before yours.
 I've always been curios about its front apron. I think it also has the GTV side grills too. Not true GT panelling but the front may have been replced after an MVA and the side grill may have been an aesthetic addition by an owner. The GTV side grill does look good.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 28, 2018, 11:14:14 PM
Old race harness fitted with single mounting point for shoulder belts.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 28, 2018, 11:16:19 PM
Can anyone decode engine numbers?
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 28, 2018, 11:37:29 PM
Engine is out of a 74-75 1.8L Alfetta.

Here's a short thread on engine casting markers to confirm capacity
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=10019.0 (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=10019.0)

The casting mark on the front of your engine looks like its for the 1750 series 2 (ie 1.8 ) engine block.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Paul Newby on March 29, 2018, 12:43:21 PM
Can anyone decode engine numbers?

AR01608*S is an early Alfetta 1800 engine with the 10548 cams - would be early 74-75 Alfettas and 75 Alfetta GTs only.

While we are decoding, RHD Alfetta shells are 116 11. And according to the reference books, the last RHD Alfetta GT was 00003258. So 3207 was definitely a RHD shell, the chassis number on the body starts with 11611. I just don't think they would have gone to the trouble of using LHD shells and converting them to RHD - easier to put a Spica engine and fuel tank in an original RHD shell.

American Spica engines are AR01629 - I've seen the CAMS logbook of Bill Magoffin's Group C GTAM and the Alfa Romeo logbook of 00002496 - they both show AR01629 numbers. A regular Alfetta 2.0 engine starts with AR01623.

There were only three GTAMs that raced at Bathurst 1976 and only the Foley car is unaccounted for. Other Alfa racers like Ray Gulson and Tony Niovanni persisted with the 105 2000 GTV and Foley went back to its old 1973 2000 GTV for 1977 Bathurst before building a new Alfetta GTV up for the 1978 Bathurst race.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Cool Jesus on March 29, 2018, 11:56:42 PM
Yep, all 25 Alfetta GTAms were Aus spec 1.8L Alfetta GT shells. I have someone's opinion (cursing that I haven't referenced it), however they stated that the main reason for these 25 Alfettas not being consecutive sequenced chassis numbers was the choice that they should all be Alfa Red in colour. So, the Aus bound Alfettas on the dock (or where ever thry were), the fellas ran out grabbed 25 red Alfas that were bound for delivery at the dock/yard. Swapped out the 1.8L for the 2.0 SPICA and sent them off to Aus toot sweet.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 30, 2018, 07:51:19 AM
Hi Paul and CJ,

Thx for that, I'd like to explore the lhd vs rhd shell.  Looking at this car, and I'm not sure about others, it really looks like a lhd shell.  I know it has a rhd chassis number but the chassis number designation may not go to the shell, but to the end market/configuration. Ie it doesn't matter what the shell is, the chassis number is allocated based on how it ends up say rhd for a particular market.  Ive compared it to my standard 1975 GT, and there are differences.

How about you other GTAM pundits, for your own or other cars you've seen lhd or rhd shell?
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: festy on March 30, 2018, 01:33:41 PM
I wouldn't get too worked up with sequential chassis numbers - I've seen GTAM compliance plates for #1949, #1954 (on Alfa forums) and a logbook for #2496 (sold by Foleys in Dec 76) and someone else (on a forum) said they had #3505. A 1900 chassis was most likely built in 1975, but all these cars would have been Australian Compliance 06/76 - the last month before ADR27A came in and the last month for GTs.

#1954 is still around, waiting for a donor GT nose to be tracked down to replace the GTV sheet metal that was grafted on at some time in the past. If you google 'Alfetta GTAm' it's the one with the white nose.

The compliance plate shows it as a 7/76 Alfetta GTAm, and it still has the original Spica engine #AR01629-003505.
I believe this one was originally sold by Ray Gulsen. LukeC used to service it the 90s and remembers the owner well, but it's been off the road for 20+ years now.

Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on March 30, 2018, 04:26:33 PM
yes I have made 3 offers on in last 3 months on this car
havent heard a whisper if you know the guy can you pm me please
or is it that add that pops up in the UK site
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: festy on March 30, 2018, 04:39:56 PM
I've just seen that ad, it's not legit.
My uncle bought #1954 in Feb 2015 and has no plans to sell it. I'll let him know you're interested though, just in case he ever changes his mind.
He was looking to buy the GT(Am?) that Scott recently acquired too, but was hesitant because of the compliance plate.
If anyone knows of a GT shell being scrapped, please let us know. A reasonably neat GT was bought as a nose donor a while ago, but turned out to be too good to cut up :-[
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Davo416 on March 30, 2018, 09:21:01 PM
PM sent Festy -  I have a 6/76 parts car build 2556 but blue with no GTVAm flavour unfortunately  :( just lots of rust, but the nose might be salveagable??
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 31, 2018, 08:20:26 AM
Can anyone decode engine numbers?

AR01608*S is an early Alfetta 1800 engine with the 10548 cams - would be early 74-75 Alfettas and 75 Alfetta GTs only.

While we are decoding, RHD Alfetta shells are 116 11. And according to the reference books, the last RHD Alfetta GT was 00003258. So 3207 was definitely a RHD shell, the chassis number on the body starts with 11611. I just don't think they would have gone to the trouble of using LHD shells and converting them to RHD - easier to put a Spica engine and fuel tank in an original RHD shell.

American Spica engines are AR01629 - I've seen the CAMS logbook of Bill Magoffin's Group C GTAM and the Alfa Romeo logbook of 00002496 - they both show AR01629 numbers. A regular Alfetta 2.0 engine starts with AR01623.

There were only three GTAMs that raced at Bathurst 1976 and only the Foley car is unaccounted for. Other Alfa racers like Ray Gulson and Tony Niovanni persisted with the 105 2000 GTV and Foley went back to its old 1973 2000 GTV for 1977 Bathurst before building a new Alfetta GTV up for the 1978 Bathurst race.

Hey Paul, which car is 2496?
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: aggie57 on March 31, 2018, 09:29:10 AM
Scott - if you're wanting to see what US cars were like BaT is a good reference point, with all the photo's sellers are required to include.  Here are a couple of links:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1978-alfa-romeo-alfetta-2/ (https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1978-alfa-romeo-alfetta-2/)
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1976-alfa-romeo-gt/ (https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1976-alfa-romeo-gt/)
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1979-alfa-romeo-alfetta-2/ (https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1979-alfa-romeo-alfetta-2/)
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: festy on March 31, 2018, 11:00:36 AM
PM sent Festy -  I have a 6/76 parts car build 2556 but blue with no GTVAm flavour unfortunately  :( just lots of rust, but the nose might be salveagable??
Thanks - I've just sent you an email. A rusty blue nose would look better on the car than the current rusty white one ;D
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: vin sharp on March 31, 2018, 10:03:36 PM
Hi Scott,
Firstly, I'm pretty sure Benincas GTAM was the same car they ran with carbs for a few year after, & yes, Frank Porter was the main driver for almost all of its life.
I think if your car is only one number different to Bill Magoffin's car ( & his IS a special car) I would start investigating there. Perhaps the might be some similarities in the unusual aspects of the shell. It may be possible that 2 shells were picked & started for the project, Bill's as a full Gp2/C spec car & yours maybe a second that never got that far.
Also, regarding colours, the one my father tested a Talbot Motors was a rather odd shade of pink/maroon/plum? rather than red. I've seen some 105 Berlinas in the same colour & early 1.8 sedans.  Certainly not  "normal" Alfa Red. 
Vin
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on March 31, 2018, 10:16:52 PM
Thanks all.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Mike on November 26, 2018, 01:01:07 AM
For interest sake,  I note your car is vin no. 3207.  I have 3205 and 3208.

3205 Is a silver GT with Spa Milan plate.
3208 is a red GT Alfa Australia plate sold new in WA to an owner in Victoria park.
I also have 2532, a dark blue GT.

Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on November 28, 2018, 08:15:32 AM
Interesting, I think it just reinforces that the chassis numbers for gtam were not sequential.

Good to hear another 2 gt's are intact.
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: 17fitty on January 07, 2020, 11:45:58 AM
Thought id ad another gt to the mix ive just dragged out of the shed-its chassis number is AR11611-0002329 and engine is AR 01608 S31086-Anyone got any info as this I
seems to be missing compliance plate and other bits like seats door cards etc but a worthy project(for someone)
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: 17fitty on January 07, 2020, 01:18:57 PM
Forgot to say that its got the 1977 gtv front nose cone on it which looks to be factory as I cant find any drilled out spots or different welds-lines are great?
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: Scott Farquharson on August 11, 2020, 10:00:17 PM
New Facebook group for GTAm owners.

We've got a couple of cars on there but would like to see others on there.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/303406260866495/?ref=share
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: 999Juz on June 27, 2021, 10:41:23 AM
Hi everyone, this thread may be dead but in case its not Scott sold this car to me (my 1st alfa) and I'm in the process of pulling it apart in order to potentially discover why it was parked up and get it going again.
The engine is now out and does have the 10548 cams mentioned above. It also has copper exhaust manifold gaskets (#4 was upside down)which I dont know if are standard or not.
All the valves seem to be opening and closing well (head is still on at this stage.) and there's some bright green paint on the front of the sump (dipstick side) which seems to be unusual.
As I've never pulled one of thesae engines down before I'm learning as I go. It looks like I need to back off the cam chain adjuster in order to get the head off so I've just ordered the 17mm hex.
Any tips and tricks you all may have would be much appreciated!
I appreciate all the above info, thank you to the contributors, it seems probable that it was a racing car at some stage, the plan for now is simply to get it going then see how much love remains, atm its growing, I cant wait to drive it!
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: carlo rossi on July 02, 2021, 10:50:28 AM
does it have the lsd at the rear and that should help you determine it

i think it is
Title: Re: Is it a GTAM or not?
Post by: 999Juz on October 10, 2021, 10:44:06 AM
Hi all, I recently picked up the gearbox from Mick at Hugh's who confirmed its not an lsd.
I've begun to put things back on on this car now. (steering rack is back in, brake booster and clutch master in, hatch is on)
The faults I've discovered which may have been a reason for it getting parked are limited to the fuel pump and missing dizzy.
Having a look inside the fuel pump now and as soon as some circlips show up I'll re-assemble and bench test it.
Also waiting for a gearbox mount then the entire drive line goes back in.
Drivers seat mount is getting welded up today.
If anyone has for sale or recommends a good supplier of a servicable (points or elec) dizzy, F & R caliper service packs (no pistons just o rings and seals) and a radiator I'd be mighty obliged.