Now that I'm taking my 156 to various events it became apparent that the brakes are crap. No surprise that worn out brakes of an unknown brand aren't up to the job.
I know there's the whole GTA brake upgrade option, but for now I'd stick to standard sizes and calipers.
First, should I go for slotted and/or drilled discs? The price difference is negligible so it's really down to the fact if slotted/drilled are any better. Are they?
Second, brake pads. I'm thinking of going EBC redstuff or yellowstuff. Yellowstuff are more of a track day pads, but EBC claim they are still decent while cold. I'm not too concerned about daily driving as I'm pretty sure they'll be no worse that what I've got. However, hillclimbs are run with cold brakes mostly so I want pads with a good cold bite. Has anyone got any feedback on EBC? Or should I rather go Ferodo DS2500?
If you are driving the car to and from the track for a Saturday / Sunday meeting don't go for the top spec race pad. They will never get up to temperature, squeak like buggery and probably not work on the Monday - Friday commute. I have a twin spark Alfetta GTV that I drive to and from race meeting and use occasionally during the week. You will have a lot more fun if you CHANGE THE BRAKE FLUID REGUARLY and use EBC Greens ( or similar) for starters. Also you will pretty quickly learn that in an underpowered car like a 2 litre Alfa the worst thing you can do at the track is PUT YOUR FOOT ON THE BRAKE PEDAL. A good lap time is usually always predicated on slow in fast out ( not the other way around) and maintaining as high a corner speed as possible.
Big improvements can also be had with better shockers and substantially stiffer springs. But beware once you get to this point you are on a very slippery slope. Going a few seconds faster can be very addictive and expensive, but possibly as much fun as you can have and still have your pants on.
From what I gathered on the internet (forums & EBC website), EBC redstuff don't need warming up, yellowstuff work good from cold as well. Neither is top spec race, EBC claim both are track/road use.
Fair point about braking as little as possible. But even "a little" on a track is heaps more intensive than in a daily use. And I'm not too concerned about motorkhanas and hillclimbs, but more about doing few laps on Lakeside or QLD Raceway. Will EBC greens be ok in that case?
New brake fluid obviously goes in, there's no question.
I'm a Victorian so I can't really comment of the Queensland tracks. If you want that early bite , you will get that with the EBC greens or the Ferodo DS2500's . I have used both and never ran out of brakes . The brake fluid is really important . Stay on top of that ( bleed before every meeting) and you shouldn't have any problems. Pads are pretty cheap so try a few.
As I said if it is a stock 156 once you have got the brakes sorted out , there are some pretty big gains to be had from springs & Shockers
Wow, I knew staying on top of brake fluid changes is important, but I didn't realize it has to be that often. If that's the case, I can swap brake pads as well before the race anyway.
What would you recommend re: shocks & springs?
I am not planning some fancy options now, as I'm pretty with my current skills I would much better off spending money on more track time and/or tutoring. But worth knowing what to do later on.
First thing I'd suggest is new brake hoses all 'round. When you change the pads give the caliper yokes some love so the calipers themselves and your new pads don't hang up. Wurth CU800 is handy to have, the other copper greases are inferior by comparison.
Brake fluid degrades over time . Assuming you go to 3 -5 meetings a year, bleeding your brakes before each meeting just means the whole system remains reasonably fresh, and unlikely to boil. I don't know who the go to person for shock's & springs advice is in Queensland . But in Victoria you could try Hugh Harrison or Mick Aarons @ Monza Motors. He race's the ex Alan Jones /Colin Bond Alfetta GTV . and a relatively standard 2 litre 932 series GTV with some basic modifications that he is managing very respectable times in.
Go EBC Red DP31061
Have used them in all my Alfa's including 156's and other cars.
I can't seem to find yellows DP41061
Or try others.
Thanks for the input everyone. Sourcing EBC yellow isn't a problem, there's heaps on eBay, but it seems like they have some quality issues. I've got some good reviews on Ferodo DS2500, seems like I should try them.
And yes, I will definitely change brake fluid and rebuild calipers if necessary and will apply proper grease for pins & pads. New braided hoses are also a part of the upgrade, but that's not a question, really. That's why I didn't mention any of that.
Bleeding can be fun with modern ESP/ABS blocs, even with the diagnostic tool. Allow lots of fluid, you might consider a pressure (not vacuum) type bleeder too.
100% on the brake fluid. Alan Goodall taught me that, his philosophy was to bleed the brakes before every event and once you start doing that the difference is amazing. Once I understood and accepted that I was able to run my GTV6 with a 3.0 12 valve for several years on standard brakes, no problems.
So yes, if you're using the car at all competitively then bleeding the brakes regularly is essential. Saves a lot of $ and a potentially lot of heart ache.
Do modern Alfa's use single piston calipers? If so do they suffer uneven pad wear like the old VL calipers did? Just asking, I have no experience with these cars on the track but definitely something I'd be looking at.
All good advice, from then brains trust.
Neil's recommendation re. A good brand of pad for your car is definitely worth consideration - he and his sons have probably done more laps in a 156 TS than anyone else in Victoria. The cars performance is pretty impressive in my opinion.
Al.
+1 for braided brake hoses and regular fluid flushing and bleeding. I'd be bleeding brakes again at the end of the days sprinting - especially if your driving the car home! MOTUL RBF660.
Also try and complete as much of the "cool down" lap without touching the brakes, leave the car in gear and don't use the handbrake to hold the car in the pits. Even park the car facing into the wind if possible!
I use EBC Reds on my cars for road use..they are superb with no need to warm up, no squeal and long life.
I have used them on a trackday in my MX5..they did not survive!
I swap out to EBC Yellows and they work well and can be left in if I get a bit time poor with only the very first gentle stop of a morning seeming to need a little extra pressure.
I have a "set" of 330brembos, rotors, uprights, GTA steering idler arms with new hub bearings and 2L hubs pressed in - built and available, complete plug and play. They came off a GT and were destined for sooty but the hubs (splines) supplied were not correct, and I can't be arsed pressing them out and getting new hub bearings again. Make me an offer, they're in Brisbane, sitting in the shed, gathering dust, looking forlorn and shiney
The standard 156 brakes should be adequate for club track days. If the brakes can lock the wheels (activate ABS) then they are effective enough. The rest is about fade. Use good fluid. Standard should be adequate, but I'd use Motul 600. Most people don't spend enough on pads. I've found Ferodo 2500 pretty good. If you need a higher friction co-efficient, try Ferodo 3000. But 2500 has nice feel. Endless Type R are good. I use them on the front of my GTV6. Or Pagid. I think the Pagid Orange are similar to Ferodo 2500. Get them all from Barrie Smith Motorsport.
Quote from: Craig_m67 on September 28, 2017, 05:47:36 PM
I have a "set" of 330brembos, rotors, uprights, GTA steering idler arms with new hub bearings and 2L hubs pressed in - built and available, complete plug and play. They came off a GT and were destined for sooty but the hubs (splines) supplied were not correct, and I can't be arsed pressing them out and getting new hub bearings again. Make me an offer, they're in Brisbane, sitting in the shed, gathering dust, looking forlorn and shiney
Thank's for the offer. I'm really tempted but I am confident that I don't need GTA brakes to improve my track results. That is a nice upgrade but as of now the standard brakes (with new fluid, braided hoses, and better pads) are sufficient for my skills and standard 2.0 engine. I'll keep your offer in mind in case I would have some spare cash to go for the bling factor.
Quote from: Paul Gulliver on September 25, 2017, 02:54:19 PM
Also you will pretty quickly learn that in an underpowered car like a 2 litre Alfa the worst thing you can do at the track is PUT YOUR FOOT ON THE BRAKE PEDAL. A good lap time is usually always predicated on slow in fast out ( not the other way around) and maintaining as high a corner speed as possible.
I think the first sentence of this is an odd way to look at it. I agree with the rest (though 'slow in' means the fastest entry speed compatible with maintaining the fastest corner speed without loss of speed in the corner due to having 'overcooked' it...).
Some thoughts on brakes:
Limiting brake use will badly affect lap times. 'Slow in' can only occur if you can slow the car down from speed, so regardless of how powerful the car may be, hitting the brakes hard has to happen. You need to be on the brake for the shortest distance possible, which means as hard as possible, for the shortest time possible.
Keep in mind that in racing you not only need good brakes for lap time, you need to be able out-brake other cars going into corners (or at least not get out-braked by other cars). This puts a lot of heat into the brakes, a lot more than braking earlier and for longer.
Braking more gently for longer means you've started braking earlier and from a lower speed (and likely been out-braked by someone with better brakes...), so there is less kinetic energy to convert into heat, so it's easier on the brakes but does nothing for the lap time (or in the braking duel...). Braking harder for a shorter distance and time puts more heat into the brakes more quickly, and the brake has to be able to cope with that.
The brake has to be able to cope with whatever heat it is going to experience for the entirety of the event in which it is competing, and this means that the pads must be fit for purpose. Fit for purpose means that the pad shouldn't give off excessive gas at the temperature it will experience in use. Excessive 'out-gassing' means that so much gas is coming out of the over-heated pad that it creates a high pressure gas layer between the pad and the rotor, which effectively acts as a very efficient lubricant. This is the dreaded 'pad fade' and can occur abruptly, and can cause dramatic braking loss, but the pedal will still be firm (this is quite different to fade caused by boiling fluid, when the pedal will go soft, maybe even all the way to the floor).
A given brake can be improved with pads more suitable for higher temperature, but the temperature can also be reduced. One way to assist this is to duct air to the brake. If this doesn't work, or higher temp pads don't work or can't be found, another way is to increase the size of the brake. Note that the pads get hot from friction, but that very little of this heat can escape from the pad directly into the environment, the vast majority must conduct into the rotor, and from the rotor is dissipated into the environment.
A larger rotor will not only have a larger thermal mass (all else being equal), so can absorb more heat before it gets too hot (for the pads to quickly enough dissipate enough heat into), but more importantly it will have a larger surface area, and therefore will be able to dissipate that heat more rapidly (radiate it into space, and conduct it into the air passing over the rotor), so the rotor will heat up more slowly during brake application and cool down faster after brake application (and so keep pad temperature down).
Larger pads will remain somewhat cooler because there is X friction acting over a larger pad area (i.e. more pad absorbing X heat), and pad heat will transfer more readily via the larger pad area into the rotor (from where it will be dissipated into the environment). The pads still rely on the rotor to dissipate the heat, so a smaller rotor will be a 'heat bottleneck', and even larger pads will still get too hot (maybe just not quite so quickly).
Of course bigger brakes weigh more. This is static mass added to the cars overall weight, but more importantly it is both rotational mass and unsprung mass. Increased unsprung mass means that the suspension mass is a bit harder for the dampers (shock absorbers) to control, and may affect handling significantly (probably not enough to really be noticeable on a road car, but a difference that may show up on the stop watch with a track car).
Rotational mass has more affect on acceleration than does static mass (think of the rotors as if they were flywheels), so there will be a slight impact on acceleration (again probably a non issue for a road car, but maybe significant on the track). Conversely, once at X rpm, rotational mass is harder to slow down when braking, so will add heat stress to the brake, but the greater heat dissipation of the larger brake should / ought to more than make up for it.
So, it can depend on how the track car is being used. For a lap dash or hill-climb then bigger brakes may do more harm than good, because a smaller / lighter brake with well chosen pads may never overheat. For circuit racing, where the brakes get hammered over and over for many laps, bigger brakes, within reason, are nearly always better. Everything is a compromise.
Of course minimising heat will also minimise heat in the fluid. As has already been said, contaminated fluid will have a lower boiling point due to absorbed water, so no matter what the fluid must be at least reasonably fresh.
For a road car, an important consideration is that large wheels and tiny little brakes just look ridiculous. Who has not noticed all those hoony cars with 20" wheels and tiny little stock brakes, lost in the void...
Regards,
John.
More thoughts on brakes:
Apart from stopping hard and resisting fade, another important aspect of how brakes function is how they feel. A firm pedal with a predictably consistent travel improves brake feel, inspires driver confidence and makes it easier to heel / toe accurately and consistently.
Rigidity in the entire system is important. It's essential that all the pedals, brackets etc. be as stiff as reasonably possible (an example; CB7 Accords are known to flex the bulkhead slightly - where the master cylinder attaches - when the pedal is pushed hard. I added a brace abutting the end of my Accords' MC which made a noticeable improvement to pedal feel, albeit relatively slight).
It's also important that the hydraulic tubes and hoses don't expand excessively with high fluid pressure . The metal tubes are OK, but stock rubber hoses generally do expand appreciably and contribute to unwanted pedal travel and a feeling of sponginess. Nylon (?) hoses reinforced externally with a braided metal sheath are typically significantly less prone to swelling under pressure than stock rubber hoses, and the main reason they are so commonly used on racing cars. However, it's my understanding that to fit them to a road registered car will require official approval and an engineers' report (?).
Callipers can (do) suffer from flexure as well, and are a source of pedal sponginess. The piston or pistons exert a lot of force, which tends to elastically 'spread' the calliper away from the rotor. The stiffer the calliper the better, but as a general rule a stiffer calliper will be heavier. Callipers with pistons on only one side of the rotor (i.e. sliding pin callipers) tend to be less rigid than callipers with opposed pistons (and no sliding pins), but it's my understanding that this is not a given.
If there is an opposed piston calliper that can be fitted in place of the sliding pin calliper, then this is likely to be a significant improvement. Is the GTA front calliper an opposed piston design? I don't know, but if it is then it would be worth considering I would think. At the same time you can take advantage of fitting the larger diameter GTA rotors (would probably have to). Such a modification may or may not require an engineers' certificate, since the parts are available on another version of the same car (...?). If I were a bit less cash strapped at the moment I would seriously consider researching this a bit more deeply with a view to upgrading my own front brakes (mostly in an attempt to gain a more consistent pedal, I think the car actually stops OK as it is).
I suspect it's less likely that there might be an easily fitted / adapted opposed piston calliper for the rear brakes, probably because the calliper also needs to incorporate a handbrake mechanism. I think it's less of an issue with the rear callipers because it's likely that the rear brake line pressures will be quite a lot less than the front line pressures (?), so spreading of the rear callipers is likely to be a less significant issue.
Even slightly worn wheel bearings will cause a lot of pad 'knock-off', which is a bad thing for a consistent pedal.
Regards,
John.
Quote from: johnl on October 03, 2017, 03:56:20 PM
If there is an opposed piston calliper that can be fitted in place of the sliding pin calliper, then this is likely to be a significant improvement. Is the GTA front calliper an opposed piston design?
Yes, the 147 GTA has 4 pot Brembos (2 pistons acting on each side of the disc/rotor)
And I can attest to their stopping power.
John, with all due respect Paul's point about limiting brake use in a standard car is perfectly valid. Braking is only part of the equation in fast lap times, in lower powered cars especially. Momentum is the key to fast times. You have to maintain momentum. Let the car slow down to much and its oh so hard to get back up to speed.
For sure there are places on most tracks where hard braking is required, Dandenong Rd at Sandown for example, a very hard brake in any car.
Personally I reckon if your right foot isn't sore after a few laps in a standard Alfa you're not trying hard enough. Not from braking, but from mashing that gas pedal into the floor as often and as hard as you can!
Thanks for all the input. Braided hoses are legal in QLD, especially if they're ADR approved, as far as I know. I still believe that GTA 4-pot upgrade is not worth it for me now. But either way, I still would have to choose brake pads.
Why not give Cameron @ Automotion a call, he's racing an Alfa 147 at the moment, he'd be able to recommend you some pads.
old post i know - but i'm looking at changing pads on a 147 for track work. Ferodo DS2500. Is there a local supplier? All I see is EB Spares.
Call Maranello Pursang - 03 93869650. They supply the FERODO race pads for our FF.
Revining an old post of mine.
So first year I was running EBC Yellowstuff in standard calipers, the next year Ferodo DS2500. Both are fairly good, they work on the street when cold and then are good enough to last the usual 15 minute sessions. Have adequate power to stop 2.0 car.
This season I put in Mito Brembo calipers (which are 100% bolt-on, even the brake hose fits) with 305mm rotors (as on GTAs) with circo m119 full racing pads. Well, this setup is obviously great.
Quote from: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:18:33 PM
I cant tell much difference between an OEM brake disc and a slotted after market one.
All else being equal there will be no difference between slotted and unslotted discs, at least not in normal use. A difference will exist only when the pads get very hot, and produce lots of 'outgas' (essentially pad smoke, though not all the gas will be visible). If the pad outgas can't escape from between the pads and disc faces rapidly eniough, then it can prevent the pads maintaining proper contact with the discs, and the friction surfaces effectively become lubricated by the pad gas. This is called 'pad fade'.
Disc slots permit 'outgas' to more easily escape (compared to unslotted discs), so the brakes work better at high temperature even when the pads are substantially outgassing. Disc holes do more or less the same thing, as long as the holes are open to the internal vent voids (allowing the gas to escape to the interior spaces of the disc).
Regards,
John.
Well, the whole topic is about track day use, so I wouldn't call it normal use. Though I think the difference between rotors would be negligible even then.
Same with braided hoses - I can't tell the difference between regular hoses and steel braided.
Pads make all the difference, backed up by proper brake fluid.
Yeah I find a great set of pads usually around $150 to $200 a corner, proper brake fluid that is bled and good condition tyres makes the most difference to braking. Worn tyres affect the brake pedal feel. Slotted discs arent that much more than OEM so I use them as well.
What brake fluid is everyone running? I just purchased the Penrite Racing Brake Fluid 600 Dot 4.