Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 160 Series (90, 75, 164 Sedans) => Topic started by: shane wescott on September 03, 2017, 08:27:21 AM

Title: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 03, 2017, 08:27:21 AM
Hi Alfa Team

This will be a place to put up my photos and track how I go getting this 164 back on the road. Hoping this can be done with a minimum of additional investment - although the car was a bargain at $400 -  too cheap to say no :-)

Generally its in pretty good nick - as I said to my Son when we finally put it made it back to the factory - there's a lot of stuff that works :-)


Some pictures to start off with.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 03, 2017, 08:45:26 AM
OK.

So a list of issues to start off with:

1. POWER STEERING NOT WORKING. Not sure if you have EVER tried to move or turn one of these beasts with now power steering. Let's just say it is an excellent bicep workout. I remember the GTV6 was a bit of a challenge in tight spaces parking, but bloody hell, all the weihgt of the engine and transaxle on the front wheels was tough. - Note to self - must pump up front tyres - probably help a bit :-)

As is the way when you buy a cheap car, the lady of the house said - hey this fell off when we moved the car.

It looks like a straight bracket, probably 100mm by 25mm, three holes probably 12mm diameter - i'll post a picture - prize for the person who can tell me exactly where it goes :-)

The story around the power steering was sketchy, it was leaking, someone tried to fix it, it not put togther properly.

i can confirm it does leak, the car needs to go up so I can see what needs to be done.

2. The bonnet gas struts are crap - simple stuff to fix - seem to be available or I go to my Mate in Coburg.

3. Engine clean and going over to cure rough reving. It idles o.k. as it goes through the revs though it is rough in the mid range, and then o.k. as you get past approx 4000. Will attach a photo, yes the outside looks good but the engine bay is a mess.

Now if I can get these three things sorted, it makes it closer to getting back on the road, and the next step would be a check over by an expert with a view to getting a road worthy :-)

SO Question: When I had the GTV6 I found a guide to sorting the fuel injection system here (  http://www.hiperformancestore.com/ljetronic.htm  ), it was excellent and I followed it to the tee and my GTV6 never ran better, and since that time never missed a beat.

Is there a similar guide for the 164?

Thanks in advance for your help Team - looking forward to catching up at a run and driving an Alfa again :-)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bonno on September 03, 2017, 08:46:40 AM
Hi Shane
Congratulations on the purchase of the Alfa Romeo 164 and you definitely did pick up a bargain. I can envisage numerous maintenance tasks that need to be undertaken, such as brakes, engine, fuel and electrical systems, together with all the associated ancillaries such as coolant hoses, brake lines, fuel tank/lines, wiring just to name a few. I have one simple tip and that is to develop a simple plan for managing these tasks. Best of luck and keep us posted on progress from time to time and when/if required advice/help needed just raise thru this post.
Cheers
bonno
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 03, 2017, 09:16:30 AM
Thanks Bonno

keep it simple is one of my main principles.

I've had a number of Alfa "Summer Projects" - none of them being terribly successful, but all being fun. I've done one Ducati rebuild of a 1982 Pantah - that was successful so I'm learning as I get older :-)

Really looking forward to getting into this one :-)

Thanks for the offer of advice I will defo be using that.

Catch ya

Shane
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bonno on September 03, 2017, 09:44:46 AM
Hi Shane
If you have difficulty sourcing parts locally, here is a website that you can use to source parts and info for your 164 (open up each of the sub categories to access). The guide you provided in your earlier thread involving GTV6  fuel injection system could be used as a guide/baseline, as one specific to the 164 V6 might not be available.
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/alfa+romeo,1991,164,3.0l+v6,1001114
Title: Alfa Romeo 164
Post by: VeeSix on September 03, 2017, 09:58:37 AM
Hello Shane
Great to see a 164 project arise on here, one of the Alfa Romeo models I really have a passion for, Andrews was the last project on here and that was fantastic to follow, he really followed it thru and after going with some automatics at first really came thru with a beautiful QV in the end after at first stating he disliked the QV kit, I think as a general summary the automatics are best for heavy traffic city runs and the manuals for those twisty mountain or fast interstate runs
With no interior shots and seeing the hole for the electric aerial on the left rear panel I would guess it is a series one, not the revised known as series 1.5, does it have the really large electric window buttons?
After all my years with this model I can say one of the most important things you can do when first purchasing a 164 is too remove the fuel pump and replace the rubber hose, this can cure a lot of hard starting, rough idling/running issues, just remove a black panel on the boot floor, disconnect some wires/hoses and turn securing ring, about a ten minute job once you have done it a few times
I will also warn you that the two most difficult jobs on this model is removing the power steering rack and the starter motor
The 164 register is a great site with a lot of information
If you need anything I stock all parts for this great model just contact me at david.tracey75@bigpond.com
Waiting for the bracket photo  :)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 03, 2017, 02:06:58 PM
Thanks for the link Bonno.

Thanks for the tip VeeSix and that is one NICE 164.

Funny story, back in the early 90's I had a Mentor and was learning all about Personal Development. He pushed me to set a goal so the goal I set was to own a brand new Alfa 164. I used to stop every morning on the way to work, and visualise what it was going to be like to drive it out of the showroom.

The dealer on peel street near the haymarket roundabout was the one I visited.

I stopped there every work day for about 18 months. I had a written out detailed story of picking up the car.

Well that was in about 1993, and 6 years later I was able to drive my brand new Alfa out of the showroom, but instead of a 164 it was a 1999 GTV :-)

The scary part was I randomly grabbed a cd to play for my first drive in the GTV, popped it in when I picked it up, randomly skipped to a track and played it loud.

I had one of those DejaVu moments and realised that in my story about the 164, I had written that I was playing Long Way To The Top by AC/DC as I drove it away - True Story.  Never underestimate the power of the Sub Conscious mind :-)

So I never was able to have a 164 until now :-)

Looking forward to getting it on the road and cranking out AC/DC again:-)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 03, 2017, 02:17:50 PM
Thanks  VeeSix "I will also warn you that the two most difficult jobs on this model is removing the power steering rack and the starter motor" .

I dont think I'm getting out of the power steering job but the starter motor is o.k. :-)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: V AR 164 on September 04, 2017, 05:00:46 PM
Looks good Shane, and what a bargain at $400! And what an awesome story as well, I remember the first song I played in my 164:  Stuck in the middle with you - Stealers Wheel. I usually crank that up when going for a quick backroad blast :)

I can almost guarantee your rough running is either your spark plugs or the accordion intake tube that goes from the air box to the throttle body. These generally deteriorate and crack over time.

I have seen in the engine pic you posted that there is duct tape around the tube which is possibly covering up a crack in the tube. As you know it would allow unmetered air into the motor causing rough running. Best to source another one in good condition, most likely David would have one?

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 04, 2017, 06:22:06 PM
It's awesome how music has the ability to take us back to a point in time :-)

The guy I bought it from did say something about new sparkys, so thats a check item and yes I have gone searching for a new inlet tube.

I bought an air intake kit from the USA for my GTV6 so not sure if the same thing is available for the 164.

Thanks for your help Andy :-)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on September 04, 2017, 10:00:48 PM
Does the 4HP18 often get TLC in these models?

It seems if you have a Saab or Peugeot/CitroŽn with this tranny, that "about now" the governor seals are dying of old age/heat. 
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 04, 2017, 10:19:18 PM
OK So here we go people.

What is this bracket from the 164 - i suspect "somewhere" associated with the power steering/rack, but would be good to know where.

Yes there is a prize :-)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 04, 2017, 10:22:23 PM
Wifey wanted to check for something left at the factory.
 
Of course I said yes, gave her the tour of the 164, generally pleasant :-)

pulled out the two bonnet struts so will get my local strut dude to fix them.

One thing knocked off the list :-)

Anyone know anything about these wheels?  Standard or not, some sort of after market ??

Thanks in Advance

Shane
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: V AR 164 on September 04, 2017, 10:31:15 PM
All my auto gearboxes in all 3 of my auto 164's run perfectly with no issues at all. They don't leak any fluid and still change gears very smoothly.

I still think I'm running 20 year old tranny fluid in my daily and it's still holding up. Goes to show these gearboxes are pretty bulletproof. (Now that I think of it, I should really change the fluid  ::) )

I have no idea where that bracket is from, your guess is as good as mine as I have never seen it before.

Also those wheels are not standard. A quick internet search shows that the brand Fondmetal is an Italian brand. http://www.fondmetal.com/en/

Andrew.
Title: Alfa Romeo 164 standard factory wheels
Post by: VeeSix on September 05, 2017, 11:58:29 AM
Yes, definantly aftermarket Fondmetal brand wheels, these wheels, photo attached, were the factory standard issue, I have always thought 17 inch wheels best for the looks on the 164 and 16 inch best all rounder.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: poohbah on September 05, 2017, 12:47:16 PM
My first thought when I saw those rims was that they had been pulled off a late 80s/early 90s Nissan Skyline.

I'd go hunting for some Speedlines (pepper pot style).
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 05, 2017, 01:33:39 PM
My first thought when I saw those rims was that they had been pulled off a late 80s/early 90s Nissan Skyline.

I'd go hunting for some Speedlines (pepper pot style).
Yes not sure im a fan of the rims myself - low priority though

My strut man regassed my old bonnet struts on the spot - $30 a bargain. Just need to fit them now cross another job off the list.

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bonno on September 05, 2017, 03:21:12 PM
OK So here we go people.

What is this bracket from the 164 - i suspect "somewhere" associated with the power steering/rack, but would be good to know where.

Yes there is a prize :-)
I suspect it is a spacer for the mounting of power steering. The signs of power steering fluid seems evident on the surface. l had a look at various images of the power steering assembly for the 164 but nothing seems to be coming up. Your best bet is to establish location for were you found the item then go from there.
cheers
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: Fetta GTV on September 05, 2017, 03:43:26 PM
could be this
spacer underneath the rack mount
i had it circled on other image, dont know what happened
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bonno on September 05, 2017, 05:08:59 PM
Anybody else having difficulty opening the last jpg file uploaded by FettaGTV. 
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: Fetta GTV on September 05, 2017, 07:42:40 PM
fixed image
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bonno on September 05, 2017, 07:52:40 PM
Thanks Fetta GTV
 Re-instated the circle around the part
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 06, 2017, 06:41:35 AM
could be this
spacer underneath the rack mount
i had it circled on other image, dont know what happened
I think we have a winner yes Fetta GTV that spacer looks like it. Tells me the steering assembly is not all together. Hope to get the car up this weekend and make a start

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 08, 2017, 03:53:00 PM
So had a bit of spare time.

Fitted the re gassed bonnet struts - working well, and fitted the new air intake tube.

Engine now seems to run smoother and less missing in the mid range.

It did however show up another issue - lots of rusty water coming out of the exhaust.

So this begs the question - exhaust systems for these machines.

What is the standard/recommendations/fixes.

The manifolds on the engine do appear very rusty on the outside. I have sort of a mental plan to pull the exhaust off and I suspect there may be a leak or two.

Do people run twin systems? Are there Headers that people use ??

I remember with one of my Alfa 33's I just took the car to an standard exhaust joint, he fitted what he thought would be o.k. and away it went. Very happy and not that expensive.

SO thoughts on exhaust systems people .

Thanks in advance.

Shane
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: V AR 164 on September 09, 2017, 12:08:23 AM
In short, there is very little aftermarket support for these cars, including a limited range of exhausts.

Pretty much all of the 164 crew run stock headers and cats. The only modification typically made is rear mufflers and maybe the reasonator.

The manifolds typically do not rust out and should still be in good nick. The main parts that rust is the rear muffler and resonator.

Honestly, I would go down the route of a custom exhaust made up from the cat back, and leave the front part stock.

I should also mention a great place for parts called Alfissimo International. They have a wide variety of new oem parts as well as aftermarket options too.
https://alfissimo.com

Andrew.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 09, 2017, 10:02:29 AM
Thanks Andrew.

I imagine with the cat side of things this is pretty much a must have for road legal, so will take you advice on the back part.

Lets see what I find when I have a look at it.

Ta

Shane
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 09, 2017, 12:33:48 PM
so managed to get the car up on one side, other side need something to raise my jack.

@VeeSix - this plate in the boot that we need to get off for the fuel pipe fix - how is it attached to the car?? looks like is just selastic, or maybe a turn and it comes off - any tips.

Now for the picture attached.

I'm not an expert on power steering and only been working on cars as a hobby for 40 years but that just doesnt look right to me :-)

I'm sure that pipe should be connected to something.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 09, 2017, 12:39:19 PM
Found it :-)

it appears to be the main output from the pump - no wonder the power steering isnt working.

It all makes sense sometimes.

So strategy will be, connect it back on, clean area thoroughly, check for any other leaks.

IF so, out the power steering rack comes :-(

No looking forward to that.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 10, 2017, 02:59:44 PM
and more loose/disconnected power steering stuff.

So, has anyone removed the power steering rack and how tough is it. Any hints or tips :-)

Thanks

Shane
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on September 10, 2017, 04:55:05 PM
Is it one that has an integrated ram, or is the hydraulic assistance a separate cylinder "piggyback" mounted on the rack?

If it's integrated it'll be more readily extracted with most other stuff in situ. If you have to lower the subframe don't forget to make alignment marks, and check that all piping (steering and brakes) is released from clips on the subframe before lowering it.

PAS doesn't take kindly to even minute amounts of grit/dust, if you chance it the odds are against you. This especially applies to internal PTFE sealing bands inside the pinion and ram.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 13, 2017, 12:38:15 PM
Im convinced - it comes out

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 13, 2017, 02:20:47 PM
Thanks CitroenBender.

Im not sure yet which one it is. It's a very early car so probably the most difficult one :-(

Can anyone confirm if it is possible to remote the rack and P/S system without pulling off the steering wheel and removing all the steering column crap in the cabin?

I am hoping this is possible :-)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on September 13, 2017, 03:16:23 PM
Many cars have a uni under the dash just near the pedals, remove the clamp bolt fully after marking joint/shaft for realignment, and the uni will slide back up, freeing the stubby shaft at its top. Leave the steering column locked and the steering wheel on.

Depending on the car there's usually either a flector disc or pinch clamp securing the stubby shaft to the rack. Note alignment of this before removal, also. As you have uncoupled the short shaft at both ends, now draw it up far as you can into the driver's footwell and keep it up there with something like a large bulldog clip, rubber band wrapping or a pair of vise-grips.

I shouldn't have to say it but I will; only use flare or crowsfoot spanners on the pinion input line flare nuts.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 14, 2017, 08:05:27 AM
Many cars have a uni under the dash just near the pedals, remove the clamp bolt fully after marking joint/shaft for realignment, and the uni will slide back up, freeing the stubby shaft at its top. Leave the steering column locked and the steering wheel on.

Depending on the car there's usually either a flector disc or pinch clamp securing the stubby shaft to the rack. Note alignment of this before removal, also. As you have uncoupled the short shaft at both ends, now draw it up far as you can into the driver's footwell and keep it up there with something like a large bulldog clip, rubber band wrapping or a pair of vise-grips.

I shouldn't have to say it but I will; only use flare or crowsfoot spanners on the pinion input line flare nuts.
Thanks for the advice

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: four90s on September 14, 2017, 01:40:51 PM
Hi Shane,

I've pulled the PS out of a 164 a couple of times (and a couple of times on the same car) and it is a complete pita.

Things to look out for:

There is a heat shield attached to the top of one of the left hand side mounting bolts which is secured with (I think) an 8mm nut. There is a threaded post on the top of the bolt and you need to get that off before loosening the mounting bolt.

Access is from the top and is tight and hard to see. Good luck.

To get the rack out I usually drop the rear of the front subframe. There are four big long bolts each side, two front and two rear.
Have the car up on jack stands under the jacking points behind the front wheels.
Support the subframe with your trolley jack and a wood block. Loosen the front bolts and remove the rear ones and lower the subframe.
This makes it (much/a little/somewhat) easier to remove the rack.

Inside the cabin, remove the left foot rest and the side of the centre console. Easier with the driver's seat all the way back. Lift the carpet back from where the column goes through the floor.

Drop the column cover and loosen off the height/reach adjuster. There is a big nut that needs to be loosened to allow the bottom half of the column to be slid back up to get the universal off the rack.

There is a plastic cover around the column on the floor held in with (I think) 6mm nuts. Undo and remove. (I can hear you cursing and swearing now).
I seem to remember there is some sound deadening material or something like that under there and another plastic collar as well.
Once that is out there is a metal plate held in with extensions of the studs you just took the 6mm nuts off. You need a long socket to get these out.

Remove all that and you should have access to the pinch bolt in the universal. The universal is splined, but only goes on one way (there are a couple of splines missing with a matching section on the universal).
The pinch bolt has to come all the way out as there is a cut out on the shaft for it to go through.

Nearly there now. Lift the universal off the spline on the rack and lay to one side. This may take some wriggling of the loosened column.

Once off, go back under the wheel arch and with all mounting bolts, lines and ball joints removed you should be able to wriggle the rack out.

I can't remember if it only goes out one side (like Alfettas) or not.

Once it's on the bench the rebuild is reasonably straight forward, but the seals are a problem to find and the big problem is any foreign material inside the boots will score the rack and give it a permanent leak.

I ended up combining the best bits and pieces from three racks to get a working one.

Oh, one other thing. Some of the later cars had an external damper fitted parallel to the rack purely as a vibration reducer. They had nothing to do with the assistance and can be deleted if you end up doing a mix and match.

Good luck and feel free to PM me with any specific questions. It is a while since I did anything with 164 PS but I'll try.

Regards
Steve
Adelaide.





Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 15, 2017, 09:11:51 PM
Hi Shane,

I've pulled the PS out of a 164 a couple of times (and a couple of times on the same car) and it is a complete pita.

Things to look out for:

There is a heat shield attached to the top of one of the left hand side mounting bolts which is secured with (I think) an 8mm nut. There is a threaded post on the top of the bolt and you need to get that off before loosening the mounting bolt.

Access is from the top and is tight and hard to see. Good luck.

To get the rack out I usually drop the rear of the front subframe. There are four big long bolts each side, two front and two rear.
Have the car up on jack stands under the jacking points behind the front wheels.
Support the subframe with your trolley jack and a wood block. Loosen the front bolts and remove the rear ones and lower the subframe.
This makes it (much/a little/somewhat) easier to remove the rack.

Inside the cabin, remove the left foot rest and the side of the centre console. Easier with the driver's seat all the way back. Lift the carpet back from where the column goes through the floor.

Drop the column cover and loosen off the height/reach adjuster. There is a big nut that needs to be loosened to allow the bottom half of the column to be slid back up to get the universal off the rack.

There is a plastic cover around the column on the floor held in with (I think) 6mm nuts. Undo and remove. (I can hear you cursing and swearing now).
I seem to remember there is some sound deadening material or something like that under there and another plastic collar as well.
Once that is out there is a metal plate held in with extensions of the studs you just took the 6mm nuts off. You need a long socket to get these out.

Remove all that and you should have access to the pinch bolt in the universal. The universal is splined, but only goes on one way (there are a couple of splines missing with a matching section on the universal).
The pinch bolt has to come all the way out as there is a cut out on the shaft for it to go through.

Nearly there now. Lift the universal off the spline on the rack and lay to one side. This may take some wriggling of the loosened column.

Once off, go back under the wheel arch and with all mounting bolts, lines and ball joints removed you should be able to wriggle the rack out.

I can't remember if it only goes out one side (like Alfettas) or not.

Once it's on the bench the rebuild is reasonably straight forward, but the seals are a problem to find and the big problem is any foreign material inside the boots will score the rack and give it a permanent leak.

I ended up combining the best bits and pieces from three racks to get a working one.

Oh, one other thing. Some of the later cars had an external damper fitted parallel to the rack purely as a vibration reducer. They had nothing to do with the assistance and can be deleted if you end up doing a mix and match.

Good luck and feel free to PM me with any specific questions. It is a while since I did anything with 164 PS but I'll try.

Regards
Steve
Adelaide.
Really appreciate the walk through Steve.

Some great tips team

I have time so i can tackle it one step at a time.

Big thank you guys.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 27, 2017, 06:38:11 AM
Hi Shane,

I've pulled the PS out of a 164 a couple of times (and a couple of times on the same car) and it is a complete pita.

Things to look out for:

There is a heat shield attached to the top of one of the left hand side mounting bolts which is secured with (I think) an 8mm nut. There is a threaded post on the top of the bolt and you need to get that off before loosening the mounting bolt.

Access is from the top and is tight and hard to see. Good luck.

To get the rack out I usually drop the rear of the front subframe. There are four big long bolts each side, two front and two rear.
Have the car up on jack stands under the jacking points behind the front wheels.
Support the subframe with your trolley jack and a wood block. Loosen the front bolts and remove the rear ones and lower the subframe.
This makes it (much/a little/somewhat) easier to remove the rack.

Inside the cabin, remove the left foot rest and the side of the centre console. Easier with the driver's seat all the way back. Lift the carpet back from where the column goes through the floor.

Drop the column cover and loosen off the height/reach adjuster. There is a big nut that needs to be loosened to allow the bottom half of the column to be slid back up to get the universal off the rack.

There is a plastic cover around the column on the floor held in with (I think) 6mm nuts. Undo and remove. (I can hear you cursing and swearing now).
I seem to remember there is some sound deadening material or something like that under there and another plastic collar as well.
Once that is out there is a metal plate held in with extensions of the studs you just took the 6mm nuts off. You need a long socket to get these out.

Remove all that and you should have access to the pinch bolt in the universal. The universal is splined, but only goes on one way (there are a couple of splines missing with a matching section on the universal).
The pinch bolt has to come all the way out as there is a cut out on the shaft for it to go through.

Nearly there now. Lift the universal off the spline on the rack and lay to one side. This may take some wriggling of the loosened column.

Once off, go back under the wheel arch and with all mounting bolts, lines and ball joints removed you should be able to wriggle the rack out.

I can't remember if it only goes out one side (like Alfettas) or not.

Once it's on the bench the rebuild is reasonably straight forward, but the seals are a problem to find and the big problem is any foreign material inside the boots will score the rack and give it a permanent leak.

I ended up combining the best bits and pieces from three racks to get a working one.

Oh, one other thing. Some of the later cars had an external damper fitted parallel to the rack purely as a vibration reducer. They had nothing to do with the assistance and can be deleted if you end up doing a mix and match.

Good luck and feel free to PM me with any specific questions. It is a while since I did anything with 164 PS but I'll try.

Regards
Steve
Adelaide.
Really appreciate the walk through Steve.

Some great tips team

I have time so i can tackle it one step at a time.

Big thank you guys.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Ok so - a new steering rack has arrived but im not around for a few weeks- heading for our annual Bathurst week - best week of the year will make a start when i get back. Also thinking if Richmond win the flag - yellow and black could be a stunning respray

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: Joe Garra on September 27, 2017, 10:15:10 AM
Do you mean like I did to my car yesterday?  ;D
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: V AR 164 on September 27, 2017, 10:53:17 AM
Do you mean like I did to my car yesterday?  ;D

Oh my  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on September 28, 2017, 02:52:05 PM
Do you mean like I did to my car yesterday?  ;D
I luv it Joe

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on October 28, 2017, 09:19:43 PM
Hi Shane,

I've pulled the PS out of a 164 a couple of times (and a couple of times on the same car) and it is a complete pita.

Things to look out for:

There is a heat shield attached to the top of one of the left hand side mounting bolts which is secured with (I think) an 8mm nut. There is a threaded post on the top of the bolt and you need to get that off before loosening the mounting bolt.

Access is from the top and is tight and hard to see. Good luck.

To get the rack out I usually drop the rear of the front subframe. There are four big long bolts each side, two front and two rear.
Have the car up on jack stands under the jacking points behind the front wheels.
Support the subframe with your trolley jack and a wood block. Loosen the front bolts and remove the rear ones and lower the subframe.
This makes it (much/a little/somewhat) easier to remove the rack.

Inside the cabin, remove the left foot rest and the side of the centre console. Easier with the driver's seat all the way back. Lift the carpet back from where the column goes through the floor.

Drop the column cover and loosen off the height/reach adjuster. There is a big nut that needs to be loosened to allow the bottom half of the column to be slid back up to get the universal off the rack.

There is a plastic cover around the column on the floor held in with (I think) 6mm nuts. Undo and remove. (I can hear you cursing and swearing now).
I seem to remember there is some sound deadening material or something like that under there and another plastic collar as well.
Once that is out there is a metal plate held in with extensions of the studs you just took the 6mm nuts off. You need a long socket to get these out.

Remove all that and you should have access to the pinch bolt in the universal. The universal is splined, but only goes on one way (there are a couple of splines missing with a matching section on the universal).
The pinch bolt has to come all the way out as there is a cut out on the shaft for it to go through.

Nearly there now. Lift the universal off the spline on the rack and lay to one side. This may take some wriggling of the loosened column.

Once off, go back under the wheel arch and with all mounting bolts, lines and ball joints removed you should be able to wriggle the rack out.

I can't remember if it only goes out one side (like Alfettas) or not.

Once it's on the bench the rebuild is reasonably straight forward, but the seals are a problem to find and the big problem is any foreign material inside the boots will score the rack and give it a permanent leak.

I ended up combining the best bits and pieces from three racks to get a working one.

Oh, one other thing. Some of the later cars had an external damper fitted parallel to the rack purely as a vibration reducer. They had nothing to do with the assistance and can be deleted if you end up doing a mix and match.

Good luck and feel free to PM me with any specific questions. It is a while since I did anything with 164 PS but I'll try.

Regards
Steve
Adelaide.
Really appreciate the walk through Steve.

Some great tips team

I have time so i can tackle it one step at a time.

Big thank you guys.

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Ok so - a new steering rack has arrived but im not around for a few weeks- heading for our annual Bathurst week - best week of the year will make a start when i get back. Also thinking if Richmond win the flag - yellow and black could be a stunning respray

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So tomorrow is the day - lets get this rack replaced

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on October 29, 2017, 03:19:58 PM
Hi Shane,

I've pulled the PS out of a 164 a couple of times (and a couple of times on the same car) and it is a complete pita.

Things to look out for:

There is a heat shield attached to the top of one of the left hand side mounting bolts which is secured with (I think) an 8mm nut. There is a threaded post on the top of the bolt and you need to get that off before loosening the mounting bolt.

Access is from the top and is tight and hard to see. Good luck.

To get the rack out I usually drop the rear of the front subframe. There are four big long bolts each side, two front and two rear.
Have the car up on jack stands under the jacking points behind the front wheels.
Support the subframe with your trolley jack and a wood block. Loosen the front bolts and remove the rear ones and lower the subframe.
This makes it (much/a little/somewhat) easier to remove the rack.

Inside the cabin, remove the left foot rest and the side of the centre console. Easier with the driver's seat all the way back. Lift the carpet back from where the column goes through the floor.

Drop the column cover and loosen off the height/reach adjuster. There is a big nut that needs to be loosened to allow the bottom half of the column to be slid back up to get the universal off the rack.

There is a plastic cover around the column on the floor held in with (I think) 6mm nuts. Undo and remove. (I can hear you cursing and swearing now).
I seem to remember there is some sound deadening material or something like that under there and another plastic collar as well.
Once that is out there is a metal plate held in with extensions of the studs you just took the 6mm nuts off. You need a long socket to get these out.

Remove all that and you should have access to the pinch bolt in the universal. The universal is splined, but only goes on one way (there are a couple of splines missing with a matching section on the universal).
The pinch bolt has to come all the way out as there is a cut out on the shaft for it to go through.

Nearly there now. Lift the universal off the spline on the rack and lay to one side. This may take some wriggling of the loosened column.

Once off, go back under the wheel arch and with all mounting bolts, lines and ball joints removed you should be able to wriggle the rack out.

I can't remember if it only goes out one side (like Alfettas) or not.

Once it's on the bench the rebuild is reasonably straight forward, but the seals are a problem to find and the big problem is any foreign material inside the boots will score the rack and give it a permanent leak.

I ended up combining the best bits and pieces from three racks to get a working one.

Oh, one other thing. Some of the later cars had an external damper fitted parallel to the rack purely as a vibration reducer. They had nothing to do with the assistance and can be deleted if you end up doing a mix and match.

Good luck and feel free to PM me with any specific questions. It is a while since I did anything with 164 PS but I'll try.

Regards
Steve
Adelaide.
Really appreciate the walk through Steve.

Some great tips team

I have time so i can tackle it one step at a time.

Big thank you guys.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Ok so - a new steering rack has arrived but im not around for a few weeks- heading for our annual Bathurst week - best week of the year will make a start when i get back. Also thinking if Richmond win the flag - yellow and black could be a stunning respray

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So tomorrow is the day - lets get this rack replaced

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So tie rods off - simple, 2 bolts out of the steering column unis , one near the floor and one further up- few swear words but o.k.

Next step is working out how i get the shaft/uni to move so one of the shafts can come out and i am also pulling the p/s pump, probably nedds a clean and i think that will give me more access.

Any specific advice of how to move the uni shafts on the steeri g up so the shaft comes out woul bd great - thks

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 29, 2017, 07:20:54 PM
Determination - often these things are sticky on the shaft. Bolts must be right out, not just loose.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on October 30, 2017, 01:35:27 PM
Determination - often these things are sticky on the shaft. Bolts must be right out, not just loose.
Yep bolts right out.if i just get the bolts out, does the shaft slide up or down enough to come out ?

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 31, 2017, 08:05:37 PM
On most columns, you're able to pull the intermediate shaft up through the firewall enough to disconnect it from the rack (or push it up and off the rack from through the wheelarch), then push it down to decouple from the steering column splines, then bring it right back up again so the rack coupling is hard on the firewall grommet/plate and flop the intermediate shaft to one side.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on November 03, 2017, 04:53:53 PM
sounds good. hoping to get some time on it either this weekend or melbourne cup.

need to shift the car so buying some car rollers this weekend :-)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: V AR 164 on January 09, 2018, 03:03:36 PM
Any progress so far? I need some motivation to do the rack in my automatic car. The 'small' power steering leak has turned into quite a big one and the rack needs to come out  :(

Andrew.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 10, 2018, 11:31:46 AM
So today and tomorrow ive sent the Wife to Walker Stalker. While she with her Zombie mates its 164 time.

So making a restart on steering rack today

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 10, 2018, 09:05:11 PM
So 3 hours or so on the 164.  PS pump is now off. 2 bolts and a ps pipe cover removed. I "think" thats all the mounting bolts off. Now to just get the steering box off the shaft and wiggle it out. I will be using the suggestion of lower the sub chassis. Im not spending 2 hours getting 2 mounting bolts back in

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on February 10, 2018, 09:08:31 PM
You should try losing the non-captive, captive nuts that secure a Renault Fuego steering rack.  I'm sure a 164 is easier.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 11, 2018, 08:23:09 AM
What is about Euro designers and steering racks- are they all frustrated maze builders

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on February 11, 2018, 08:31:28 AM
I know visually the 164 subframe is very close to the CitroŽn and Peugeot lookalikes, if it has the same ABS layout (left front corner subframe) take care not to strain any of the brake hardlines when lowering the subframe.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 11, 2018, 01:19:43 PM
Success didnt end up dropping the subframe - but may do to simplify  the re assembly only took a total of about 6 hours (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/dd694eb6faa00b5a2cf0b6a59c49cf6f.jpg)

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 11, 2018, 02:05:58 PM
Ok so fuel pump now . Soes the big plastic ring thing just unscrew and it come out? Whats the two modules? Pictire i have in a manual is totally different(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/f777d1c8cb0a134e59e881519353ddf3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/0cbf0712bb6aa6362c71daf3f01779ea.jpg)

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 11, 2018, 03:17:37 PM
Ok so fuel pump now . Soes the big plastic ring thing just unscrew and it come out? Whats the two modules? Pictire i have in a manual is totally different(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/f777d1c8cb0a134e59e881519353ddf3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/0cbf0712bb6aa6362c71daf3f01779ea.jpg)

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So right is fuel gauge - now is free to go out and in after a big struggle. Do i cut the plastic fuel lines to get rhe pump out and replace them. Is replacing the lines a pain?

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: V AR 164 on February 11, 2018, 04:33:12 PM
Yup, the plastic ring just unscrews. I just used a mallet and hit it anticlockwise to loosen it. Then it just unscrews.

The fuel pipes are held down by a little metal bracket with a 10mm (I think) nut. Unscrew it, remove the metal bracket and the pipes should come right off, no need to cut anything. Then the whole fuel pump assembly lifts out of the tank.

Just remember which side is which so you don't switch up the feed and return lines.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 11, 2018, 05:15:46 PM
Coolio.

On a roll now - found some new tie rod ends, will clean the fuel pump filter, replace the fuel filter, drain all the old shitty fuel out.

BTW WHO THE F DESIGNED THE OIL FILTER ON THESE THINGS.!!!!!!!

Its a piece of piss to do if you have the steering rack out and the PS pump off, but otherwise WTF.  wil defo be changing the filter while I have all the crap out.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: V AR 164 on February 11, 2018, 07:08:15 PM
BTW WHO THE F DESIGNED THE OIL FILTER ON THESE THINGS.!!!!!!!

Its a piece of piss to do if you have the steering rack out and the PS pump off, but otherwise WTF.  wil defo be changing the filter while I have all the crap out.

Hahaha, although at first I thought the same thing, itís actually pretty easy to do with everything installed. Takes me no more than a couple mins to change them when itís up on jack stands, an oil filter tool is essential though.

I use a Ryco oil filter from super cheap auto, part number Z89A. Which leads me to oil. I have been using Magnatec 10w-40 in all my 164ís, but I believe something like a 15w-60 would be better suited as they are an older engine and would run better on a thicker oil. I wouldnít bother with fully synthetic, just a good mineral oil would be fine.

Andrew.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 11, 2018, 07:32:33 PM
Awesome thanks for the tips

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bazzbazz on February 11, 2018, 09:54:52 PM
Yup, the plastic ring just unscrews. I just used a mallet and hit it anticlockwise to loosen it. Then it just unscrews.

Just be VERY careful when doing it this way, as we all know how brittle old plastic becomes, I have snapped a ring or two doing it this way & only because the age of the plastic. You can buy a tool for unscrewing the ring on eBay for about $20, its a lot cheaper than having the 1 in 50 rings that let go.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bazzbazz on February 11, 2018, 10:09:03 PM
BTW WHO THE F DESIGNED THE OIL FILTER ON THESE THINGS.!!!!!!!

The same sick twisted bastard who thought up the filter location of the 147GTA perhaps?   ::)

I use an adjustable Band Wrench which has allowed me to remove just about any filter in any position. The best part is that if you even cant get it to fit properly around the base of the filter or cant get leverage on it in the position, as long as you can open up the band and get it around the filter, you can then pull it back at an angle towards you to lock it onto the filter and turn.

The point is almost all filters are excessively over tightened.   

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/OIL-FILTER-REMOVER-ADJUSTABLE-WRENCH-REMOVING-TOOL-STRAP-METAL-BAND-60-120M/351990450282?hash=item51f444086a:g:2JgAAOSw~AVYr5~Y
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on February 11, 2018, 10:11:47 PM
Hey Bazz, have you seen the you-beaut Facom lock ring tool, part DM.J?

I can vouch for it, bought one to share with a mate and it is shedloads better than the $20 jobbies - which we also have one each of. 
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bazzbazz on February 11, 2018, 10:38:02 PM
Yeah, but as it's an extra $100 and does the job no better, I'd want it to make Cappuccinos as well.

Did I mention my mother was Scottish . . .  ;)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on February 11, 2018, 10:56:37 PM
I reckon it does do the job better. The offset legs are really handy in some cars where the cutout in the panel isnít generous.

As for parsimony, I enjoy spending money where the benefits will be appreciated.  :)
And to speak of mothers...
How few were her pleasures, she never cared for fashion's styles
Her jewels and treasures, she found them in her baby's smiles
oh, I know that I owe what I am today
to that dear little lady so old and grey


Apologies to Shane for dragging the thread into melancholic schmaltz. Back on track... Just be really careful with the lockrings, I agree with Bazz as to the risk of, well, bitter hindsight as it really is!
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 12, 2018, 10:21:19 PM
Yep i used a very large set of vise grips to push it on one side and strong hand on other side to turn result was no cracks.

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on February 12, 2018, 10:23:16 PM
Good work. Iíd wager originals are long discontinued.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 16, 2018, 01:35:04 PM
2 new ball joints arrived at my house today :-)

After a bloody good clean of the sub chassis/PS areas, it's time to reassemble :-)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on February 27, 2018, 01:45:31 PM
Replacement mounts ordered :-)

So next is a thorough clean up, oil change, oil filter change, clean out fuel pump area and drain all the old fuel out.

Then it's back in with the power steering system, and a test drive :-)
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: ARQ164 Shane on February 27, 2018, 10:16:48 PM
Hi Shane
I used to be the parts man @ Autobarn
What oil filter are you running mate ?

I like the K&N oil filter it gives me great oil pressure
And it a good price it about $22 bucks
Part number is hp-2004 is the same one on a jeep (Z10)
I also replaced my fuel filter part number (Ryco Z400)

Not shore if you are up grading yours ? But if you do
Go for NGK (BPR6EIX) they not cheap @ $36 bucks each
But my car runs like a scard cat lol
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on March 03, 2018, 09:22:18 AM
Thanks Alfie 75

 love it when people include part numbers :-)

Found the K&N on ebay for $20 inc delivery :-)

I will use that after the engine has had a chance to clear some crap out.

Not thought about spark plugs yet but thanks for the recommendation. Good quality plugs can make a big difference :-)

Thanks for your advice.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: ARQ164 Shane on March 03, 2018, 05:00:39 PM
Hi Shane ,
Cool name man lol

It you need to replace your cv boots
I made a YouTube clip that may help
ďAlfa 12v 164q Cv boots replacement ď
Hope it all goes well with the filter I put
Them on my 75,auto 164& my Qv
Cheers
Shane
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on April 29, 2018, 12:59:25 PM
Hi Guys

Two question: 1. Does the plastic fitting on top of the fuel filter assembly pop out, or do you just eith lots of persuasion pull the fuel lines off the fitting?

2. See attached diag of power steering pipes and connections is this right for RHD?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180429/63e8a4088bd7bc1b63b77661c6582800.jpg)

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on April 29, 2018, 08:11:42 PM
No EFI fitting "just pulls off".  The outcome of doing that plus 60PSI would not be ideal!

Most have one or two places on the collar of the female part, where you squeeze/depress so it allow one-way clips to disengage.  Before attempting to remove fittings, clean them thoroughly, as trapped grit can greatly hamper removal of click-on fittings.  A small toothbrush can be really helpful here.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bazzbazz on April 29, 2018, 11:43:29 PM
Disconnect fuel pump, start engine till engine stalls, try starting engine until no cylinders try and fire. You have now depressurized the system and it is safe to open/disconnect fuel tank & lines.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on May 05, 2018, 11:39:46 AM
No EFI fitting "just pulls off".  The outcome of doing that plus 60PSI would not be ideal!

Most have one or two places on the collar of the female part, where you squeeze/depress so it allow one-way clips to disengage.  Before attempting to remove fittings, clean them thoroughly, as trapped grit can greatly hamper removal of click-on fittings.  A small toothbrush can be really helpful here.
This is the fuel talk fuel filter / pump assembly i am talking about. Will have a good look for squeezy bits after a good clean.

Thanks

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Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on May 05, 2018, 06:35:15 PM
If in doubt, identify the pump by its manufacturing details on the top, look them up online (matching replacement parts) to see the ends of the tubes where the fittings go.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on May 06, 2018, 04:44:34 PM
Thanks Mate.

Good advice.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on May 27, 2018, 03:30:11 PM
Next question. The "gaskets" on the power steering hose connections.

Anyone have any idea on where I might get some new ones of these. They are shown in this picture and parts list as gasket 10261360, 60800578, and 10261150.

Not sure If I am being paranoid, and they are just washers but I dont want to put it back in and have it leak :-(.

Any ideas Brains Trust.

Thanks in advance

Shane
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: bonno on May 27, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Hi Shane
These are Off the shelf copper washers. Find attached link for supplier of one of the P/N 10361360
https://www.messicks.com/part/10261360/washer-copper
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: CitroŽnbender on May 27, 2018, 04:56:41 PM
Can also try Pirtek/Enzed etc, or if the originals are more or less OK just anneal them and re-use.
Title: Re: Project 164 - lets see how this goes
Post by: shane wescott on November 30, 2019, 08:58:57 AM
For all those watching this thread, the Project 164 needs to go.

I posted in the Buy/Sell/Swap section.

Ping me if you are interested.

Regards

Shane