First post. Second Alfa recently purchased.
My first Alfa romance (many years ago) was with a 1.8 Alfetta sedan, which was both great and awful as Alfas seem to be. The 'bad' was the driving position (pedals too close, steering wheel too far away), the dreadful gearshift action, and the weird rubberiness in the drivetrain (caused by the rubber 'doughnuts' in the driveshaft, and the flywheel being in the back of the car instead of attached directly to the engine, with said rubber doughnuts between crankshaft and flywheel). Oh, and there was the rust, oh the rust...
Second Alfa affair is a nice 147 TI TS manual (MY03 with 175,000km). In the decades between these two cars, Alfa still didn't come to understand the basic human body shape, at it's rearmost telescopic adjustment the steering wheel is still too far away (and too high at lowest setting), the pedals still too close. The only way to get 'comfortable' with the wheel and the pedals simultaneously is to sit bolt upright (which makes my use of the word 'comfortable' rather inappropriate, to say the least, I get a sore back unless quite reclined).
So, decided I can't live with this problem, something must be done...
I've made a modification to move the steering column backward by about three cm, which makes all the difference, I'm quite comfortable now. With the wheel at its rearmost adjustment it is now 3cm (approx) closer to the driver than previously possible, and also a couple of cm lower than previously possible.
The standard 147 gearshift is just awful, though no worse than many other FWD cars. The shift lever throws (both longitudinal and lateral) are too long and the linkage too 'rubbery'. I've modified the levers at the gearbox to reduce both longitudinal and lateral 'throws'.
There is a 'short shifter' available ('MTech A-Shift') which I plagiarised to make mine, though mine is a little simpler with only one bolt instead of two. For the lateral throw I've just modified the standard gearbox lever, moving the 'ball' closer to the pivot (results in the cable end attachment fouling on the shift cable / pivot mount, so aluminium must be relieved (i.e. cut off the casting) to allow unhindered movement of the cable end).
The shift now has much shorter throws in both axis, and I've also lengthened the lever to make it higher and also laterally closer to the driver. Despite the lever knob now being higher (lever longer), the shift throws are much shorter than standard. I've also deleted the 'weight lever', which seems to make no perceptible difference to the shift action (just more unnecessary mass in an already quite heavy car...).
The problem with the 'rubberiness' remains. It's a product of the shifter mechanism using a plastic ball in a plastic socket. There will always be deformation of the plastic ball and / or the plastic socket causing unwanted movement, which is multiplied at the end of the gear stick. It's just a cheap / nasty mechanism, though no more so than many others.
Honda on the other hand make the best stock shifters I've yet come across (at least Accords and Preludes). Once the rubber cable links have been replaced with all metal links, Honda shifters have the most amazing snicky / clicky mechanical feel, as good as many rear wheel drive gearboxes where the linkage reaches directly into the guts of the box.
I'm formulating a plan to modify a Honda shifter to fit a 147 (will require major shifter modification, might be easier to make something from scratch, we'll see). The Honda shifters use all metal joints (within the shifter itself), there is negligible play in the mechanism, I have high hopes for this...
Regards,
John.
I would be interested to see how you made this adjustment to the steering wheel! I have a 147 too and have to use the 'bolt upright' position :) Your shifter project also sounds v interesting, although I have the V6 so not sure if it would work for me
Quote from: Bobulon on April 14, 2016, 11:22:15 PM
I would be interested to see how you made this adjustment to the steering wheel! I have a 147 too and have to use the 'bolt upright' position :) Your shifter project also sounds v interesting, although I have the V6 so not sure if it would work for me
Hi Bobulon,
Be warned, it's not all that easy, but not all that hard either, depending on your mechanical skills, determination, patience, and hand size...
If you remove the lower trim 'plate' below the steering, and the upper and lower plastic steering column covers, looking inside the dash you'll see that the upper column is held in a steel 'cage' that is bolted to an aluminium casting (fixed to the chassis under the dash). There are four 13mm head / 8mm shanked bolts oriented vertically, and access isn't great, you need to access the bolt heads from below.
If you undo these four bolts the cage will come loose, and you should be able to pull the cage rearward by about 3cm, and the column itself (and steering wheel) will also move rearward. The cage and column will also lower to some degree, but the whole thing will be flopping around.
There are two constraints on where the cage can be positioned.
1) The cage can only came backward as far as the angle changes and sliding mechanisms in the column allow (about 3cm).
2) At the forward mounting points on the cage you'll see that there are two holes for the two forward mounting bolts, but also two other holes. These accommodate two aluminium lugs on the aluminium casting that protrude through the holes. The new cage position must allow these lugs to be clear of the cage, meaning the cage must come rearward by no less than X amount (about 3cm) and / or be lowered enough that the repositioned cage doesn't foul on the lugs.
Next you need to make some brackets to hold the cage in this more rearward position. Because I had the material to hand, I used 6mm thick aluminium plate to make four rectangular 'bracket tongues' (one per mounting point for the cage). The 'tongues' are about 60mm long and about 25mm wide. Steel would be fine, and you could use a thinner plate, but I wouldn't use less than 4mm because you are going to have to tap a thread into two of the tongue holes and some reasonable thread strength will be needed.
Next I drilled an 8mm hole at one end of each tongue to accommodate the original mounting bolts. Next you need to drill holes at the other end of each tongue so that you can bolt the cage to the rearward ends of the tongue brackets. The distance between centres for the two holes in each tongue is about 3cm, but not exactly. I found I needed to slot some of the holes with a rat-tail file to give me some wiggle room (but not the holes you will need to tap a thread into).
Once you've test fitted the two forward tongues in position, you'll see that there is no room on top of the protruding tongue for a nut. So, the rearward hole on each forward tongue needs to be tapped to suit the size / thread of the bolts you will be using to attach the cage to the forward tongues (I used 8mm x 1.25mm threaded cap screws).
You now need to determine how many spacers you'll need to lower the cage. Spacers should be added between the cage and the lower faces of the tongue brackets. With all this you'll need to be test fitting things as you go to determine what's needed. You'll swear and curse getting the bolts to thread in and things to line up, access is awkward. At one point I drilled a large access hole in the lower dash panel to pass a long socket extension bar through (not visible once the outer trim is back in situ).
Due to alignment issues with a bolt threading into a hole, I also ended up only using one of the forward brackets I had made, so the cage is held at three points rather than four (two rearward tongues and one forward tongue). I don't think this is a problem, the steering wheel feels solidly mounted and no additional flex is evident even when I apply heavy loads to the steering wheel (in any direction). Really, with power steering the loads the cage and its attachment points will see are quite small in the scheme of things. If the cage attachment were ever to move I think the steering wheel moving out of position would be the least of the problems you would have, considering all the damage caused by the crash you just had...
Keep in mind this is just what I have done to my car. The modification is quite discreet (not at all obvious) but I suspect not legal, at least not without an engineering certificate. I'm not recommending anyone else do this to their car, but if you need to (say for 'racing purposes'...), it can be done as I've outlined...
Don't underestimate how awkward and fiddly this modification is to do. If you're not confident in your mechanical ability then I wouldn't recommend doing it. At several points in the process I wished I hadn't started, but having completed the job I am very very happy with the result. In a perfect world I'd like another two cm of rearward relocation of the steering wheel, but as it now is my driving position has gone from being a PITA to quite acceptable...
Hope this is useful...
Regards,
John.
Wow, yep definitely above my pay grade :D But this is one of the reasons why I love alfas, more of their owners get into making their own little mods to make their cars better.
Quote from: Bobulon on April 15, 2016, 10:46:19 PM
Wow, yep definitely above my pay grade :D But this is one of the reasons why I love alfas, more of their owners get into making their own little mods to make their cars better.
Sorry it sounds too hard. It is quite doable given enough bloody minded determination. I was quite determined, given that the steering wheel position was seriously spoiling my enjoyment of driving the car (just pissing me off). I was even contemplating taking the column out and extending the shaft with a cut and shut, which would be quite illegal, though IMO not at all unsafe given half decent fabrication skills and the minimal loading the shaft will see (for example, my kart sees steering loads probably twenty times as great and it has welded connections on the column with no issues). The biggest issue with doing this (IMO) is that the modification would be fairly obvious, and might draw attention at pink slip time, or unwanted questions might be asked if the car were ever in an accident...
I found that at least part of my problem with the steering wheel position was that even at it's lowest setting it was higher than I found comfortable. If you also feel the same, then the 'max low' position can be increased with a degree of difficulty at least an order of magnitude less than moving the steering column backward.
It's relatively easy to insert spacers (between the cage and the cage mount casting) at the rearward cage mounting points. This tilts the upper column downward, making it a bit more horizontal, thus lowering the steering wheel. This was my first attempt at addressing the steering wheel position, and it did make things at least somewhat better. The spacers I used were only a few mm thick, but resulted in the wheel lowering significantly more than the spacer thickness. This is because of the ratio of the distance between the forward and rearward cage mounting points and the much more rearward position of the steering wheel relative to the cage mount points. No spacers were used at the forward cage mount points.
While on the subject of getting comfy behind the wheel, I also found the seat squab (the bit you sit on) to be too horizontal. I wanted the front of the squab to be higher to better support the lower part of my thighs. This is easy to do by placing spacers under the seat rails (between the rail and floor). I used two nuts (one per side) that were about 10mm thick with an ID that allowed the mounting bolts (8mm cap screws) to pass through. For me this changed the seat squab to a significantly more comfortable angle. You can't go thicker with the spacers and still use the stock bolts, you would need longer ones.
Getting comfortable is
very important, not just because it's more comfortable, but also because it helps you drive the car better. It's easier to feel the chassis behavior, and you have more precise control of the controls...
Regards,
John.
I can fully understand your thinking John, my brother complained about the steering wheel position in his Sud and did similar modifications to what you did and stopped complaining about his car and only used to complain about driving my unmodded 33.
When Formula1 and V8 Supercar drivers change teams and or get a new car it always takes them a few races to get completely comfortable with their car, such is their feel and fussiness, to drive it and feel everything properly they need to be at home with the car, Colin.
Colin,
I am very fussy about driving position etc. I do a lot of driving, and I like it to be how I like it to be. Same with my kart (though I don't have the time / money to drive / race that nearly often enough). You need to be comfortable to feel the chassis properly, at least I do.
In the good old days (pre-airbag) it was easy, just replace the steering wheel for one with a deeper 'dish', or any aftermarket wheel with an adaptor boss and the required thickness spacer. I'm probably being a little unfair criticising the 147 wheel position as heavily as I do, most other relatively late model cars also have the wheel too far away. I suspect it's to do with getting the airbag away from the driver, so the car manufacturer doesn't get sued for injuries caused by an 'exploding' airbag...?
Anyway, it doesn't help that to avoid a sore back I need my backrest set at 'semi-supine'. More than once I've been asked "how do you drive lying down?", then I ask "how do you drive folded over double?"...).
While I seem to be blogging, another thing that I found problematic was the pedal positioning. The throttle pedal was way too high, meaning heel / toe was difficult to say the least. Whenever the brake was applied the brake pedal went below the level of the throttle pedal, meaning I couldn't roll the foot over onto the throttle pedal to 'blip' (without ridiculous ankle contortion). I thought this would be easy to fix by bending the pedal rod on the throttle pedal, as I've done with a number of other cars. Good in theory, but Alfa has made the rod out of very thick metal (much thicker than it really needs to be), it's damn hard to bend (especially if you want to avoid damaging the pedal mounting / potentiometer etc with excessive force, which you do...).
I made a simple jig that I could place against the front of the pedal rod, that allowed me to use a large pair of vice grips to apply a bending force to the rod (one jaw against the front of the jig, the other bearing against the back of the rod), without loading the mounting in any substantial way. I managed (with difficulty) to bend the rod enough that the throttle pedal is now about 3cm lower than before. Next problem was that this caused the pedal to hit the plastic 'stop' before full throttle was reached (not unexpectedly). Problem cured by deleting the plastic stop, so that the pedal now contacts the floor at WOT (a positive pedal stop of some sort is needed or else the pedal potentiometer might (?) be damaged).
It's now possible to heel / toe with reasonable comfort and control (with a 'pad seating' dab on the brake just prior to heavier application), though just a bit lower for the throttle would be good. I could bend the rod a bit more, but then I'd not quite get full WOT. I'm hoping that when I replace brake pads (and rotors?) I'll get a bit less brake pedal travel, if so then it should be near perfect. I also made a a throttle pedal foot-plate out of thin aluminium plate and screwed it onto the pedal face, to get rid of the curvature on the pedal face (no like), and to bring the left edge of the pedal plate just a little closer to the brake pedal (so I can hit the throttle pedal every blip, instead of sometimes rolling the foot into the space between the pedals).
Regards,
John.
In the olden days, the car makers would put the steering wheel too close to the driver, to mask the heavy steering, the closer the steering wheel is to you, the more you use your strong shoulder muscles rather than your weaker arm and wrist muscles, and the steering wheel was more likely to give you a facelift, in the event of a front ender.
Nowdays with power steering, the steering wheel is away from yourself more, so that the departing horn cover doesn't hit you as the airbag explodes its way out.
In the olden days Alfa Romeo had the typical short legs, long arms driving position, that is less obvious now with the newer global cars, Colin.
Some do like the wheel quite to very close, and it seems more 'fashionable' in some racing formula, NASCAR being an example. It used to be that the steering could be very heavy as you say, and if you look at really old racing cars (pre 60s) most have the (very large) wheel set very close indeed to the driver (the steering column like a spear pointed closely at the driver's heart...). With the advent of rear engined racing cars the weight came down a lot, and the steering lightened up with steering geometry changes to help this. There was a need to make the steering lighter because the driving positions became much more reclined to get the driver low and out of the airflow (with drivers pretty much lying down in front of the engine), necessitating smaller diameter wheels located farther from the driver (creating the 'straight arm' driving position so common in 60s / 70s single seater racing cars).
Most modern racing cars sit the driver somewhat more upright, and do use PS, so steering loads are probably much lighter. The steering wheels do tend to be fairly close set, but packaging the driver in with all the mechanical gubbins in a confined chassis may be the main issue (?). It might also be that the cars are designed with the 'driver aperture' as small as reasonably possible, to improve chassis rigidity, which would make it harder to position the wheel more forward (?).
I hate the wheel being too close, as much as too far away, but I suspect most people just adapt to what a given car allows...? It would help if the driver doesn't mind or prefers sitting quite upright, and most people seem to, so I think there is a tendency to design the seating and control positions with the 'average' driver in mind. Won't work for everyone though, we aren't all near the middle of the bell curve, especially for those (like me) who obviously must be somewhat 'deformed'...
Regards,
John.
with regard to the pedal mods, I've tried using the standard pedals to learn heel and toe but I found that the throttle response in the first 10-20mm of travel is so sluggish that it doesn't really blip! I had a new throttle pedal position sensor installed at great expense (because of error codes that were coming up) but it didn't change anything re the throttle response.
Bobulon,
My TS engine does 'blip' acceptably. It's not super responsive, but then my last car (old CB7 Accord) had a very light aftermarket flywheel and was particularly responsive 'on the blip' (so I've been a bit spoiled in this respect). Not sure why yours doesn't. It might be something like a very dirty throttle body, or something...???
The problem I had was simply that the brake pedal (when depressed) was too low relative to the throttle pedal (or throttle too high, depending on how you look at it). Having said that, I do occasionally get a feeling that there is a slight degree of 'lag' between my right foot and the throttle body butterfly, which I'm assuming is due to the nature of the 'fly-by-wire' set up...? It doesn't seem consistent though, sometimes I notice it, mostly not, might be in my head....
Somewhat disappointed to find little (as in nothing in my price range) in the way of aftermarket light flywheels for TS engines. My light Honda flywheel was a very worthwhile modification, and in total only cost about $140.00 delivered from the USA... Seems the only way for me to get a lightweight flywheel might be to buy a stock second hand one and have it machined...
Regards,
John.
I have a 147 and I must be different to you the driving position is fine ?? no problems there. as for the gear shift are you sure you don't have a "Friday car" My 147 has one of the sweetest shifts I have ever had ? I have had all sorts of cars Australian, Japanese, French. And apart from the Mitsubishi Starion I had when I was 20, the alfa has the best shift action
Quote from: Bobulon on May 01, 2016, 07:07:31 PM
with regard to the pedal mods, I've tried using the standard pedals to learn heel and toe but I found that the throttle response in the first 10-20mm of travel is so sluggish that it doesn't really blip! I had a new throttle pedal position sensor installed at great expense (because of error codes that were coming up) but it didn't change anything re the throttle response.
When you have the crash repairs all sorted give me a call, I am familiar with this problem on 3.2 GTAs. Sometimes it can be as simple as a calibration.
Quote from: suzuiq on June 25, 2016, 07:33:47 AM
I have a 147 and I must be different to you the driving position is fine ?? no problems there. as for the gear shift are you sure you don't have a "Friday car" My 147 has one of the sweetest shifts I have ever had ? I have had all sorts of cars Australian, Japanese, French. And apart from the Mitsubishi Starion I had when I was 20, the alfa has the best shift action
Been meaning to reply, too many other things on the plate...
I don't find the 147 shift action much if any worse than a lot of other FWD cars I've driven. This is not to imply that I think it's good, especially compared to a good RWD car shifter, or to some Honda shifters (which use quite a different design utilizing all metal pivots, each with a dedicated axis of pivoting motion for longitudinal or lateral shift lever motion, rather than a plastic ball and 'socket' with a multi a directional pivoting action). I think this a common problem with 'ball and socket' type shifters, especially if the ball and socket are made from plastic.
My shifter did / does have some wear in it (between the plastic ball and the plastic socket) that contributed to a sloppy action, but I managed to get rid of this wear clearance by 'shimming' it. If you take off the fake leather surrounding the shift lever you can see the top of the shifter mechanism. On this you'll see the plastic ball and the socket. On the top of the socket are four small rectangular holes / slots spaced radially around the socket. If you insert 'something' into these holes then the clearance (wear) between the ball and the socket will lessen, and 'sloppiness' will be reduced. If you insert something into all of the rectangular holes you may be able to largely eliminate the clearance.
The 'somethings' I used were short cut lengths of 8mm wide nylon pull tie straps (there is a use for them after you've cut those tails off...), doubled over and pushed snugly into the holes. This closed up the clearance, though I did have to fiddle to get the tightness between the ball and socket correct (initially it was too tight and partially seized up the shift action, though slop was entirely eliminated). I may have ended up not inserting a pull tie strap 'shim' into one of the slots in order to get the 'tightness' correct (i.e. three 'shims' rather than four). I recall that one of the bits of pull tie strap kept wanting to work it's way out of it's slot, and I had to use a self tapping screw to prevent this (drill small hole in plastic next to slot, then insert self tapper so the underside of it's head beared lightly against the top of the plastic insert).
This definitely improved the shift action (much less sloppy), but it's still not all that great. I can get rid of all the slop, but the shift action gets a tad tight, some slight clearance is needed. Even with all play eliminated, there is still a 'sponginess' in the shift action. I'm sure the problem is that the force needed to move the lever (though relatively small) causes the socket to 'spread' during the shift (I've watched it carefully as I moved the lever, it can be seen). Also, the plastic has a bit of 'sticktion' between the surfaces as they rub together, despite some slight clearance and liberal lubrication. I think this is due to the plastic not being anywhere near as hard as metal pivots would be, so the surface of the plastic 'indents' slightly when a load is applied (?).
Regards,
John.
The bushes at the other end in the selector plate pivots also wear and can increase the "play" in the shift feel.
Baz
Baz,
Not sure what bushes you are referring to. All I know is that the ball and socket seemed to be the source of at least most of the unwanted free-play in my shifter mechanism. Before I 'shimmed' the shifter the play was substantial, it was like the lever wasn't attached to anything until it was moved several centimetres in any given direction. After 'shimming' nearly all that slop was eliminated.
Ideally, when I can find time, I want to either modify an Accord / Prelude shifter mechanism (others might adapted, but I'm familiar with these ones and they are very good), or make something from scratch if I can't adapt a Honda part. I'd also like to replace the plastic Alfa cable ends with something made from metal. I want to be able to feel the metal gearbox gubbins through the lever, I want a 'click click' shift action, I want to be able to feel the dogs engage...
The best shifters I can recall using were in RWD cars. Ford made some very good ones (Escort for one), Mazda MX-5 (not that I've ever driven one, but have sat in and snicked the lever around). The best I can remember would be Fiat 124 Sport (as fitted into the old Nota clubman style car I used to own), which had a ZF gearbox. I doubt it's possible to make a cable shifter as good as those, but with some modification the shifter in my Accord wasn't far off...
Regards,
John.
Quote from: johnl on August 05, 2016, 02:46:05 PM
Baz,
Not sure what bushes you are referring to. All I know is that the ball and socket seemed to be the source of at least most of the unwanted free-play in my shifter mechanism. Before I 'shimmed' the shifter the play was substantial, it was like the lever wasn't attached to anything until it was moved several centimetres in any given direction. After 'shimming' nearly all that slop was eliminated.
Ideally, when I can find time, I want to either modify an Accord / Prelude shifter mechanism (others might adapted, but I'm familiar with these ones and they are very good), or make something from scratch if I can't adapt a Honda part. I'd also like to replace the plastic Alfa cable ends with something made from metal. I want to be able to feel the metal gearbox gubbins through the lever, I want a 'click click' shift action, I want to be able to feel the dogs engage...
The best shifters I can recall using were in RWD cars. Ford made some very good ones (Escort for one), Mazda MX-5 (not that I've ever driven one, but have sat in and snicked the lever around). The best I can remember would be Fiat 124 Sport (as fitted into the old Nota clubman style car I used to own), which had a ZF gearbox. I doubt it's possible to make a cable shifter as good as those, but with some modification the shifter in my Accord wasn't far off...
Regards,
John.
Dredging up an ancient post but was curious if John is still around, did you ever get to doing this mod on your 147?
Bob,
Since then my shifter has since been through a few iterations.
1) A modified Accord shifter. This was far better than the awful stock porridge stirrer, but not without some relatively minor problems, i.e. could have been a bit better.
2) A shifter built largely from scratch, and better again. This shifter used a recycled universal joint (from a steering column) to provide slack free precise articulation, but it was crude and ugly. In effect it was a protoype more or less designed as it was being made, with numerous adjustements, revisions, cutting apart and welding back together. But it worked very well.
3) A more refined version of the second shifter.
This current shifter has a shortened shift action in both longitudinal and lateral shift planes. The longitudinal and lateral lever throws can be independantly adjusted to be somewhat shorter than the stock shifter, or quite a bit shorter, or substantially shorter. Longitudinal and lateral throws are adjustable for distance of throws, and the gear knob can be adjusted for position (i.e. in the horizontal plane and in height).
While adjustment of lever length does affect the distance of gear lever throws, it is not the only thing that does. Length of shift throws can be adjusted independantly from changes in lever length, within the shifter mechanism. So, a shortened lever throw can be had with a short lever length, or with a long lever length.
There is zero free play in the shifter itself, but there is still a small degree of free play in the shift action (way less than with the stock shift action...). This is entirely generated in the cables and in the gearbox. I've set up this shifter to give a very 'tight' gate, but not with an overly stiff action.
The ends of my shift cables have been modified to use all metal 6mm spherical rod ends in place of the stock plastic joints (a worthwhile modification). These rod ends attach to the shifter with 6mm bolts (and to modified levers at the gearbox end), but the shifter could easily use ball posts to fit the stock cable ends.
I've been lazily thinking of perhaps making a few copies of this shifter to see whether or not there might be any interest, but life keeps getting in the way. Expressions of curiosity are invited...
Regards,
John.