Seeking advise from fellow racers. My mate and I have recently acquired an 89 manual 164 as per heading. Looking initially at supersprints to start us off. Car is unregistered though and will remain so. I'm ok with following the AROCA sprints checklist, but...
What category vehicle do I have?
What should I check or change initially to hopefully ensure it will last on its first outing?
What Cams category does it fit? As I'd like to also join in with the veloce guys at some stage.
Oh well, race set-up must either be a trarity with FWD or a state secret ???
Anyhow, may as well diarize my adventures on yet another project for entertainment and to give members something the read.
Had been contemplating some track work and trying to figure out how to go about it, had the '78 Alfetta GTV, which is slowly but surely rusting away out in the whether over the last year and a half. Its in the way at the mechanics shop and need it gone, so why not throw it on the track. Found myself with another Alfa nut, who posted on 'the other Alfa forum' that he was looking for a team mate to share the costs of some track day fun. So we teamed up and found that the GTV was going to be too much work until he found a 2.5L Alfa 75 in Victoria. Purchased at $350 it was a bargain, only we eventually had to let it go as transporting it back here was beyond what we wetre looking at for the team budget.
Anyhow, as luck would have a new member threw up a give away 164 3.0L and I turned up that day with a trailer to give him no time to rethink his generosity. Anyhjow, car was about to be scarpped by council and had languished in te open for near 6 years.
Unfortunately it was a non runner, although we were promised it was a daily driver which was stopped being driven due to a clutch problem. Prior owner threw in an extra set of rims, workshop manual and a box of various service items and parts, happy days. Threw it onto the trailer (thanks Chris ;) ) and off to its new home. After a jet wash and clay bar, the exterior came up surprisingly well. With a wax, one would not have even known it had been languishing outside. Interior wasnt in bad nick either, pity its been all pulled out.
So we're now just going over the Alfa cleaning and checking the components, just to at least make sure that it gives us a full day at the track on its first outing. I'm a bit of a stick in the mud about grim in my cras, and there is certainly no alck of it with this one. Everything just seems to be caked in oil, grease and grim. So I'm slowly cleaning it off. The body thankfully is solid, which isn't surprising for this fully galvinzied Alfa. Brackets and such have styarted to rust and they're slowly being cleaned and repainted/sealed.
The clutch was certainly stuffed. Master cylinder leaking from seals and feed hose, and the slave cylinder seized solid by rust. Have been chewing Dom's ear off at Italian Automotive for component refurbishment and have ended up purchasing seals and a new slave. My race partner is fabricating a solid feed tube for the master, which due to its location, the plastic pipe has a tendancy to fail from exhaust heat. We're also relocating the clutch hydraulic feed which ran directly past the exhaust. Not interested in boiling the oil for the brakes, so we're installing a seperate fed reserviour away from the exhaust.
Just another quick note on the 164 clutch master cylinder. Had a hell of a time trying to figure out my options in repair/replacement. Most owners too have been pulling their hair out and as you would have it, the RHD version is the problem child.
Once the cylinder returns from being refurbished I'll throw a few more photos on and explain the differences between LHD and RHD versions of the cylinder and what can and can't be interchanged between them. Suffice to say at this stage a clylinder for a LHD 164 can't be used on a RHD version without considerable modifications which renders the swap unworthy.
The blue velour, plush interior removed, dash and front door arm rests will remain.
PS, any 164 owners out their after interior parts, your more than welcome to collect for a nominal (labour) fee such as $10 for head liner - I'm more interested in passing them on rather than binning them - (PM me). I was surprised at how easy it was to remove the dash by one person.
During the strip down I was also able to confirm that this vehicle was an Alfa from Hong Kong, later imported by Brian Foley's dealership. Found $2.20 HKD in the carpets and numerology indicates that 220 is a message that with ongoing positive expectations, thoughts, affirmations and visualizations, you will manifest your expected outcomes and desired results. Friggin awesome. Watch out guys and gals here we come ::)
It will be different from everything else out there, good on u, can u get LSD's for these?.
That will be a major improvement, with suspension set up, pm me if interested and I will give u the set up I had on my 156 gta race car, should be very similar to what u need.
Are you planning on coming to the Vra day at Wakefield this Friday?
Good luck
David
This Friday Dave! Nooo, above photos are current mate. With time and money, I'm hoping for 2nd round of Aroca supersprints. Yeah, I haven't found any other 164s on a track for some inspiration and ideas other than the procar dragster. Found 156, 155, 75, even some current models. As you say should be very similar to these fwd racers.
Pm sent
Well, I stand corrected as far as nothing out there re racing 164s, this interweb is a vast sea of data. There's a couple of pics, but nothing for inspiration with set ups. They're mainly the 24v engine too, as opposed to our 12v.
Now LSD, still researching, however I'm thinking that our project has a standard diff sans LSD. I have an enquiry sent to 'Quaife' who manufacture a diff for our beast. There is a compatible Q2 version aswell currently $925 USD @ Alfissimo. Evenso, these diffs for the 164 are going to be difficult for us to source (if at all) and at a reasonable price (unless an alternative can be modified in some minor way)
Yes, the LSD would be awesome, but I'd be looking at upwards of a grand $$$$ to self install. This ball park figure seems to be standard with any upgrading, suspension, brakes, fuel delivery, damn it! Not exactly the budget I'm looking at just yet, definately in the near future. So keeping to an entry level supersprint runner, I think we're content to just give her a major service and inspection and put her on the track sooner, rather than later. Even just doing this will cost some coin and I'll post my fixes while I'm at it.
Hiya Cool Jesus
Do the best you can at the budget you can afford.
Lighten the car as much as you can= goodbye air conditioning including under the dash unit + compressor,,,sound deadening etc and get it on the track and evaluate it.
Don't worry about all the go fast bits yet,,,just install some good brake pads and go for it.
Worry more about the cooling system and hoses + cam belt at this stage
After a few events, (supersprints),,after you get faster,and you REALLY like the car,,,then you can think about go fast goodies like track tyres,diff=,,if you have wheel spin out of corners,,,,suspension= springs + shocks.Etc Etc Etc.
Some of us can have just as much fun in a standard car.
If you are after trophys on your first event,maybe you wont get one...If you really want one,,I will buy one for you.
Just get the car out there and have some fun.
Maybe you are a good driver,,But are you a race track driver ??
It might scare you.
Do the best you can on your budget,evaluate it,and see if it has potential.
The previous owner of your car did pretty good with a bog standard car
And it will be good to see a 164Q out there.
Just my 2 lire worth.
Robert
Oh,,I just spoke to your mechanic who im sure will give you the same advice.
Quote from: giulia_veloce on February 07, 2014, 04:06:42 PM
Lighten the car as much as you can= goodbye air conditioning including under the dash unit + compressor,,,sound deadening etc and get it on the track and evaluate it.
Don't worry about all the go fast bits yet,,,just install some good brake pads and go for it.
Worry more about the cooling system and hoses + cam belt at this stage
That's our team constitution at the moment. I just want to get it out there so bad, but I'm also wanting it to last a day of full throttle action. It's very easy to get caught up talking about go fast bits. My race partner and I take turns at being each other's handbrake. So as a form of therapy I'm cleaning and refurbishing bits and pieces as I'm pulling things apart.
Yes, the AC and heater with associated bits was the very first thing I pulled out. Well, maybe second after the interior.
But I'm a step closer with my cams licence and car number. Yep cool Jesus is a 169er 8).
Looks like it was great weather for Wakefield, would have loved to have debut the car there :'(
Have had a bsuy few days at the back end of the project. By the end, we'll virtually have a completely refurbished rear suspension and brakes. To say the least, it was in a sorry state. The cross member was only held in place with one bolt with rust, grime and muck in abundance. Somewhere along its travels a large solid object found its way under the car and had smashed the cross member and one of the cross bars in its trajectory beneath the car. No doubt this would have had some effect as to the lost of the bolts and heaven knows what the alignment was like. Anyhow, all cleaned up and straightened, the items now fit nicely.
Waiting on a seal kit to arrive before the rear brakes are reinstalled, I started playuing around with the rear proportioning valve. Iniotially I just cleaned it up but curiosity got the better of me. Playing around with it I found that the plunger which the suspension acts on wouldn't move. A quick search on the web and I found it wasn't a difficult item to home service, so out it came.
The brake lines connect diagonally into the valve. Why? I have no idea, the valving works on hydraulic pressure and I'm still perplexed as to how its supposed to work in this diagonal configuration. I'm assuming that reagrdless of which side the pressure is on the pistons will move in and out to equalize untilt the internal seals block the pressure. Anyhow, you can see that the two pistons protrude from the face. Missing from the pic is the fork plunger, which freely moves in and out from the centre hole and had a plate on it to act on the pistons/plungers. The pistons are normally inj the inwards position, held there by the internal spring. Spring pressure is overcome by hyraulic pressure to push the pistons out against the plate, which moves the fork out against the suspension torsion rod. Dependant on the height of the suspension to body, determines the allowable movement of the fork, hence the pistons. So the closer the suspension is to the body, the valve psitons have less allowable distance to travel. Which equates to great brake pressure at the calipers.
Although not in the previous photos, there is a thick brass bush ring that sits atop each valve piston, held in place by the two 10mm allen head covers. These screws are torqued at FT and have a copper washer as a seal. The brass bush rests against the screw and the rear piston seal against the brass bush. The rear brake lines feed into this area below the seals and you can then see the front brake lines feed into the valve just above the front seal. The larger brake lines are the feed and the smaller lines are the outlets to the rear calipers left and right.
Both pistons were lightly rusted and the center plunger was siezed with muck and dried out grease. Gave them all a good clean and very, very light sand with 1200grit including the bores. It all now moves in and out freely. The internal seals looked new and perhaps may have been a silcone based rubber. Evenso, unable to locate a replacement kit on the web I treated them like the holy grail and hopefully they wont leak on me. The rear seal is loose in its housing and the front seal (were a leak is most likely, is snug and held in shape with a dish. Anyhow, made sure they were reinsatlled with ample silicone grease and the bores caked in copper grease to ward off any future iron oxide. The boot protecting the fork plunger and front face did have a small hole, however being a track vehicle and using ample ample copper grease, I was content to reuse the boot as is.
Unusually, curisosity on my part normally kills the cat, but in this case it may have been well advised. Still, it may leak now, but fingers crossed and I'm sure I'll be able to sorce some form of seal.
Idle hands are the devils play ground, so I thought I'd hack into the alternator for some curious learning. Suffice to say, its my first time digging into an alternator, but it is a very easy item of vehicle maintenance/repair to undertake at home. Anyhow, dirty grimmy alternator will get my undeserving attention, so off it came for a clean. Another venture which worked out for the better as I found the rear palstic bearing bush (tolerance ring) was knackered and had failed to the point that it was in bits throughout the rear of the alternator. Being my first time, I obviosuly tackled this minor project from all the wrong directions. Firstly, don't remove the windings from the diode plate as I did. I was careful to not over stress the copper wiring to desolder, put I should have lifted the center armeture out, leaving the outer windings in place on the rear housing.
So, alternator apart, I found the rear bearing tolerance ring shattered, the rear bearing on the way out, the slip ring (that copper conact on the shaft) scored and dirty and the contacts in similar condition. All bits apart and start with a good clean and a lick of paint. Sourced some new bolts and screws. Gave the slip ring a freshen up with some fine wet and dry, I think I went 600 if not 1200 grit. I just held the center armiture in a vise with the bearing, held a length of wet n dry around like a belt and spun the armiture by hand for a nice even and level clean. The carbon brushes were just given a very light touch to remove any pitting. Still have plenty of length, but replacement is as simple as desoldering the back ends and swap out with new ones and solder. The slip ring requires a press to remove the bearing first, but otherwsie its just as easy. This alternator appeared to have beebn a refurbished replacement and it was still in reasonable nick other than the above items.
Reinstallation... resolder the outer windings to the diode plate, no biggy, can only really go back on one way. The copper winding wires, sit in little saddles and are then soldered. I replaced the old cracked and worn wire sleeves with some heat shrink. I had a tolerance ring machined from plastic, which my mate had three goes at due to the thicknesses. Even after all his efforts I wasn't confident that it was doing what it should as there was a little play. Anyhow, wont to an auto electrican, who supplied me with the bit, even so, it was the correct bit, but it did fit. I had to cut off a second small lug on the outer ring, and i later found that the cutout visible in the pic, should lin up with the large ope hold for the bush mounting. Had to cut that out also. Sparky told me to fit the ring first then lightly press the bush squarely in situ. Best way to do this (I did it wrong) is to reinstall your diode plate and outer windings, solder away, install armiture onto front housing, this one was held in place a a plate screwed into the housing. Then mate the two halfs together. The tolerance ring is a tight fit into the housing, I was lucky enough to have a tolerance ring pressing tool (ie door lock decorative cover!) which was the perfect fit. Used a vise to carefully press the plastic ring in, which thencompresses the ring further. This then makes a very firm fit for the bearing which may also require a careful vise pressing. Evenso, you may even get away with screwing it down in place with the body bolts. Believe me, it is a very firm fit as I had alsorts bags being filled with swear words when I went about it the wrong way...
Pulling it apart, I found there was no key on the sfat of the alternator. The sparky said it wasnt required, so long as everything was tight. So, internals in place, reinstal external bits and contact bushes (this is when I found that damn gap in the tolerance ring was wrong) and an alternator good as new. Hooked up my multimeter and a drill, and the alternator appears to be functioning as it should. So, again curiousity saved the day on this item of required hardware.
Actually, keeping in mind that the purpose of this thread is for the set up of a track car, what alternatives or suggestions are there for battery and alternator. Can imagine running a smaller battery than standard, considering the electricals have been minimised. Are there smaller, lighter alternators? Is one necessary, will a gel cel run for a day at the track?
You will need an alternator, but you could probably downsize a bit. You'll need more power to run your 164 than a carb'd car.
Battery voltage affects ignition dwell time, injector 'dead' time, and even fuel pressure. Your ECU will attempt to counteract low voltage by charging the coil longer and opening the injectors earlier but it can only do so much, and high RPM driving makes it that much harder to run properly at low voltage.
You might also want to look at fitting a slightly larger pulley to the alternator.
I take it we need to slow down the rpm in the alternator. Is there a spec on ideal rpm? Could probably work out a ratio on pulley sizes.
I only just noticed this thread - One of the things I did to my 164Q before I blew it up was I added a second rear sway bar - I removed it before I got rid of the car, and it's still sitting in the shed with the brackets for fitting it - made a huge difference to the handling balance.
The electronic struts are actually a very good strut if the car still as them - I rebuilt mine and got the auto damping working, but if the auto damper switching isn't working, they default to the stiff setting, which works quite well...
This just has the normal struts, no auto leveling. A second sway bar???
Well, thanks to La Strega, his simple solution to stiffen up the rear end has come to pass. Such a simple process, add a second bar, wella :D The hardest part was lining up the damn bolt holes...
As you can see, all that's required is a plate to attach the second bar too, Strega had one fabricated out of aluminium, drill the holes to cater for bar separation and find two slightly longer bolts to accommodate the thickness of the bracket. Since the suggestion, I also found a method to add a second bar to the front. However as Strega suggested, it's a moot point as you negate the rear stiffening and your back to square one and room out front is non existent.
So, as La Strega suggests, the second rear bar will now "...make it behave like a Giant Peugeot 205 - with drop throttle oversteer like a good front wheel driver should have..." Yee Haw 8)
Quote from: giulia_veloce on February 07, 2014, 04:06:42 PM
Maybe you are a good driver, But are you a race track driver ??
It might scare you.
Culo, that sounds like a challenge! 8)
Yes baby steps on the track to start with.
Reminds me of an incident many moons ago racing along Livingstone Road, Marrickville in the middle of the night heading to an emergency when I noticed my passanger had turned a shade of white and was holding on to the jesus bar and dash board for dear life. I then glanced at the speedo and saw I was climbing past 160kmh. Hmmm, perhaps the emergency didn't really need us to be there that quick so I hit the anchors to a more respectable (and perhaps safer) urgent run. Still laugh about it today...
Enjoy!
Well, finally had a few minutes in between deluges here in Sydney to play with the 164 again.
Tackled cleaning up the injectors myself, as the few enquiries I sent seeking quotes on refurbishment went unanswered >:(
Anyhow, found a full refurb kit for $50 from the US which included all o-rings, plastic washer, pintel and the micro filter. The pintel end of the injector merely pops off with a well placed screwdriver. The micro filter merely needed a suitably sized screw to bite into the brass ring. Then I used pliers to sit on the metal end and with a light swift tap, the filter is out. I sat the injectors in clean fuel for a few weeks at first, with an occasional swizzle each day to move things about (DIY ultarsonics ??? ).
Next was to give the insides a blast of pressure, so rigged up some tube with my air compressor (set @ 45-50PSI). rigged up a switch with the wacka packa. Attached the tube to the injector top, filled it with throttle body cleaner, inserted air nozzle and applied prssure. Then flicked the switch a few times on and off until the fluid was spent. Internals cleaned. Prior to this, I should add that I check resistance of each injector and all were spot on 16.2 Ohms.
So, now cleaned, I masked up the outside and prep'ed the body for paint. They were original black, but I had a sip of silver that I wanted to get rid of. Anyhow, injectors are now back, the new pintel end ahrdware merely pushed on. The micro filter I just tapped into place with a light tap as I held the injector in my other hand to absorb any harsh jolt. You could press it into place, but that looked like it would take too long ::)
Whilst researching injector cleaning I came across the listings of injector capacities. Was speaking with one of my mechanic aqcuantences who mentioned installation of larger capacity injectors to help with fuel delivery now and later on down the track. With this in mind, I came across what I believe to be a straight swap cross model injector. They're commonly known as Saab Red Tops, which from memory come off a 2L turbo Saab and apart from flow rate, their specs are identical. The best part of them is that they flow twice the amount of the 164 injector.
Has anybody swapped out injectors on anything for a possible performance gain?
Also managed to pull the engine out for an out of vehicle serivce and clean. Damn I've been aching to get my hands on the busso. Was surprised at how easy the muck came off, only needed degreaser on my second go for the more stubborn caked on grease and oil. There was no real indication of a leak, just a layer of general lack of care. May swap the sump gasket while its out as a preventative measure, looks much easier now than in the vehicle.
Now my question with the motor is, the engine has the oil pressure de-tensioner for the timing belt. Its my first time with the busso, but I wouldn't have said it was leaking.
So, do I leave it alone?
Put a new seal kit through it?
Or replace with a mechanical version?
If it has a non leaking oil fed detensioner, don't mess with it. Buy a seal kit and have it handy for when the seals start leaking, but otherwise, leave it be!
Thanks Ben, I'll give it a good blessing and leave it be 8)
Hey CJ has this thing hit the track? any updates?
Man, two teenagers, a wife, two dogs, and two seperate house moves and 4 cars to keep on the road :-[
Damn it's been heart wrenching, but I finally collated a bunch of service items for the engine. Have been posting elsewhere about where to source valve shims as I'll be checking clearances.
Either way I'll have some news to post soon and maybe some track work before the end of the year. I almost snatched up some performance cams just recently pistes on here, but had to rain myself in from that excitement. Gotta keep it simple and cheap, it's sprints and the go fast bits can come later.
yep I know how you feel, I said to my wife recently, If I had two life times I may fit everything in I would like to do. The problem with us average Joes that we are usually money and time poor.
I would have to hold back as well, looking for the go fast bits.
I think I speak for a few of us here when I say there's something appealing about getting a budget road car onto the track with small amount of coin thrown at it.
I agree GR, but at the end of the day, just enjoy it. You may not have the best and fastest car, but you still can have heaps of fun, and thats all that matters.
Any future plans for it CJ? I reckon that the stock engine has enough power, and adding more won't really help you at this stage. Get a good set of tyres and some lightweight wheels to put on, grab a racing seat and a 4 point harness (probably have to anyway for rules and regs) and possibly get a set of coilovers. This would help alot more tham cams and such IMO.
Thanks, Andrew.
Quote from: Cool Jesus on July 14, 2015, 07:50:27 AM
Gotta keep it simple and cheap, it's sprints and the go fast bits can come later.
Can't agree more. I feel like too many people don't get out there and have a go at the sprints because they think they need to throw lots of time and money to prepare a car to go fast. For some it's a lack of awareness, for some it's ego getting in the way. To go and do a supersprint you need a $29 fire extinguisher and a loan of your mate's motorbike helmet. Take your stock car out there, you'll be plenty fast enough to thrill yourself and in sprints you're just racing against your own times anyway. Get a feel for how the stock car handles, and when you do (inevitably) start making some modifications do them one at a time and you'll know what difference they make - that's much more satisfying.
How that a great post, I how just wrecked a 164 92 auto and buying a white 164q ,
I've been toying with the idea of strut rods on the rear with rose joints.
I put the 3lt into my 75.
anyway great post
cheers Shane
That's what its all about, getting onto the track for minimal outlay to release the inner hoon. My issue is the 164, before coming under my ownership, had sat round for 8+ years. As such, I want (to the best of my know how) to make sure it will last the day. So I'm spending time and resources on replacing, renewing, refurbishing most of the service and wear items, paying particualr attention to anything rubber. Of course my inner hoon starts to get excited as I'm playing around with the car and i see new posts and web items of go fast bits for the 164. I need to keep reminding myself that its entry level at this stage, just get the damn thing on the track. Having just moved 2 x homes (me and the kids), I've just got to do a major service on the Spider and I can then start throwing all the service/new bits I've been purchasing onto the 164 and crank it over. Yep, I don't even know if it will run? I cranked it over when I first picked it up and immediately stopped, realising that the timing belt was way way way too old for that stupid act. :o
Anyhow, stay tuned, will have some progress/build updates soon. 8)
Quote from: Cool Jesus on August 06, 2015, 08:27:15 AM
That's what its all about, getting onto the track for minimal outlay to release the inner hoon.
Sounds great, hope you enjoy it real soon!
When you get there, I suggest testing how the car handles with the extra rear bar unhooked - just so you can see what a difference it makes. Change one thing and one thing only at a time, so you have some idea of which changes have been effective and how to feel the difference. Just a suggestion.
A manual 164 should be a great fun and cheap track car, and almost anything you do to it will make it better.