Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum proudly hosted by AROCA Victorian Division
August 20, 2008, 07:46:33 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Please edit your forum profile to set your AROCA State Division.  See this post for more information.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Running Rough on Low Petrol  (Read 1293 times)
shane wescott
Full Member
***
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 117



View Profile
« on: January 22, 2008, 11:26:19 PM »

Hi Guys

For the third time when my GTV6 has gone down to the reserve light on around 80% of the time, the car has run rough.

The solution is just to put more fuel in and run it around for 20klms or so. It then clears it's throat and all is well.

So the question is any ideas why. I did notice the pipe out of the top of the fuel tank is squished (flexible pipe, but I am not sure whether this should be flex or not. I am assuming it could be crappy fuel at the bottom of the tank or maybe a filter issue.

Before anyone asks the car is alwasy fueled with SHell Vpower, and I am a fan of Wynns Spitfire so that goes in around once every two months.

Any ideas.

Catch ya

Shane
Logged
TurboGTV
Full Member
***
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 152



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2008, 05:44:57 PM »

I always try to avoid running my car down that far on fuel, as I reckon the concentration of particles (rust/sludge/whatever) per litre of fuel gets very high at that point. 

I'd take a guess at either rust and dirt in the bottom of the tank getting swirled around more when the level is low, and partly blocking the pickup OR water in the tank.  Off the top of my head I can't think whether petrol is lighter or heavier than water.  I suspect its lighter, which then wouldn't really make it a viable theory.

Either way, to fix it I'd start by removing the fuel tank, draining it completely, sending it off to a radiator place (or similar) to be flushed, and then use compressed air to blow back down (from engine) the fuel supply line while its disconnected from the tank.  Fill with 100% fresh fuel, and see what happens - also leave that Spitfire additive out for a while.  Some of those additives seem to cause more harm than good.

Alternatively, don't let it get down that far.  I fill my cars up Wednesday mornings (cheapest fuel), regardless of how much is in it.  If I drive my Rangie all week, it uses half a tank, and the Alfa might use a little more than half, but thats as low as they get.  (Although part of the reason for that is both are EFI cars with carby fuel tanks and no surge tank  Shocked)
Logged
Brett
Newbie
*
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 35



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2008, 07:04:41 PM »

Water sits on the bottom.
Logged
a sharp
Alfa2010
Jr. Member
*
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 70


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2008, 08:50:53 PM »

Guys
All of the above advice is good, rule 1 for all fuel injected cars is never run the tank below 75% empty from there on it picks up the solids in the bottom of the tank, while most of the time these will clear from the injectors, sooner or later something will not and the opitions are replace the injectors or service then, (take a pile of money and hope). Yes feul is lighter then water, 1/2 cup of metho will remove this, this also helps to stop the tank rusting out, 116's are prone to this. For some reason the Classic Alfa V6 runs better on the BP top end fuel, don't ask me why but it is true and I don't know about the current V6 motors. Shell Optimax/Vpower seems to be a bit varible, I know that when Shell Aust up graded there plant that the sucessfull Japaness contractor C____ed up the design of the Cracking towers and this effected the top end products such as Optimax, I know this was a ongoing dispute, but don't know if the these problems in the plant where ever resolved 100%. Rremember drive your V6 hard but treat them with TLC as you own the best sounding motor ever, when Top Gear refer to the classic Italian V6 sound they mean a GTV6 voted the best sounding engine ever by a panel of top motor writer in europe.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 01:49:00 PM by a sharp » Logged
TurboGTV
Full Member
***
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 152



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 06:04:40 PM »

Quote
Yes water is lighter then fuel, 1/2 cup of metho will remove this, this also helps to stop the tank rusting out, 116's are prone to this.

If water is lighter than and floats on fuel as you say, then the vague point I made holds true (being that the water only gets sucked in when the tank level is very low).  Out of curiousity, any knowledge on why/how the metho removes the water?  I'd hazard a guess at the metho molecules sticking to the water ones and weighing them down (allowing them to get picked up by pump), considering how well the two blend together.

Quote
rule 1 for all fuel injected cars is never run the tank below 75%

I assume you mean by this don't use the last 1/4 of the tank?
Logged
Neil Choi
Alfa2010
Jr. Member
*
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 94


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 09:31:25 PM »

Organic Chemistry 101

As an organic chemist, I can tell you water is not lighter than petrol (hydrocarbon).  Given the density of water is 0.998 to 1 g/mL, petrol is less than that, about 0.7-0.8 g/mL, so petrol floats on water.  Here is your chemistry lesson, do this experiment, take a bottle, add some water, then add either petrol or vegetable oil, where is the water layer?  I do this type of experiment pretty much every day.

Metho or methylated spirit which is ethanol with methanol and a fouling agent (to prevent you from drinking it) added, is miscible with water, ie metho dissolves or mixes with water, such as vodka.  So putting metho in your petrol tank will take out the water condensed in there.  At low concentration, metho dissolves water, the metho or ethanol is soluble in petrol (at low concentration), so the tri-mixture is all miscible together.  Basically when you add in metho, you have made up E5 or E10!!!

Neil


« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 09:44:53 PM by Neil Choi » Logged
Phil Baskett
Alfa2010
Hero Member
*
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 530



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2008, 10:09:21 AM »

Great explanation Neil.....I had always wondered how that actually worked!!
Logged

1977 Alfetta GTV Group S - Race car
2008 WRX - Road car
TurboGTV
Full Member
***
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 152



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2008, 06:27:15 PM »

Quote
As an organic chemist, I can tell you water is not lighter than petrol (hydrocarbon).  Given the density of water is 0.998 to 1 g/mL, petrol is less than that, about 0.7-0.8 g/mL, so petrol floats on water.  Here is your chemistry lesson, do this experiment, take a bottle, add some water, then add either petrol or vegetable oil, where is the water layer?  I do this type of experiment pretty much every day.

This was my initial suspicion, and I was a little surprised to hear otherwise, but didn't have the energy to go and look myself - I do know from experience that diesel is lighter than water.... and come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I've seen petrol floating on diesel.... hmm - I hate when I discover I already knew an answer.

Quote
Metho or methylated spirit which is ethanol with methanol and a fouling agent (to prevent you from drinking it) added, is miscible with water, ie metho dissolves or mixes with water, such as vodka.  So putting metho in your petrol tank will take out the water condensed in there.  At low concentration, metho dissolves water, the metho or ethanol is soluble in petrol (at low concentration), so the tri-mixture is all miscible together.  Basically when you add in metho, you have made up E5 or E10!!!

Excellent explanation - thank you Neil!
Logged
shane wescott
Full Member
***
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 117



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2008, 04:47:43 PM »

You Guys are the font of all knowledge.

Have now filled up with BP Ultimate and will use that from now on and see how it goes.

As for the metho, interesting that they put something in it to stop people drinking it, maybe a liberal application of orange juice would mask that:-)

Anyway I will give it a go after the run down to Mirboo North this weekend.

Tank removal/cleanout is on the list as soon as the 75 is on the road.

Thanks for your help Guys.

Catch ya

Shane
Logged
Sheldon Mcintosh
Alfa2010
Sr. Member
*
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 313



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2008, 01:49:09 PM »

As for the metho, interesting that they put something in it to stop people drinking it, maybe a liberal application of orange juice would mask that:-)

Anyway I will give it a go after the run down to Mirboo North this weekend.

So, how did it go with the orange juice?  I reckon raspberry cordial is more effective myself.
Logged

Alfa 90 Grey one.  (Ironsides).  For track use only
Alfa 90 Blue one.  For road use only
shane wescott
Full Member
***
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 117



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2008, 11:14:05 PM »

only just got home now.

I had such a great time on the EMR that it has taken a crowbar to get me out of the car of it when i got home. Luckily the Wie needed milk so I got to do one last quick run up to the shops.

Unfortunatly when i got home the cupbboard was bear as far as metho goes:-)  I think the orange juice or the red cordial would be the go, but also maybe even Red Bull - a Red Bull and metho to kick off the night:-)

Anyway I am writing a book about pubs so may also write a book about Metho Cocktails- just need someone the test drive them for me:-)

Catch ya

Shane
Logged
Paul Bayly
Newbie
*
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 40



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2008, 09:12:18 PM »

1.  You have a problem. Grin

2.   Fix the problem rather than come up with a variety of ways to work around it  Huh

I'd begin by cleaning out the tank.  I suspect you have a buildup of crud in the tank, and the fuel cleaner has probably made it worse by dislodging years of buildup.   Or there may be a bit of plastic or something loose inside the tank that only blockes the pickup with low fuel.  BTW, the metho trick will only remove so much water.  Above a certain concentration the alcohol won't mix with any more water so you will still get free water in the tank.

I suspect the real issue is a tired fuel pump.  The fuel pipe in the tank is actually a standpipe and the pump has to draw fuel up the pipe.  With a fuller tank it's easy, but with a low tank the pump may be struggling.  Check it out now so you don't end up stranded (with a full tank  Wink)

Logged

Paul 'Beatle' Bayly
'92 164
SALE Vic
http://photos.yahoo.com/beatle_bayly
shane wescott
Full Member
***
AROCA Division: Victoria
Posts: 117



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2008, 11:21:06 PM »

Thanks for the advice Mate.

I have the tank removal/cleanout/replace pipes/replace pump on a list.

Ran the petrol down last week quite low to where it previously had issues, but no prob this time. The only diff was since posting the original Q on this thread I have been 100% on BP Ultimate fuel, and it seems great.

Catch ya

Shane
Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.4 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.151 seconds with 20 queries.