Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

I've just got my car back from the panel beaters, and I am less than impressed with the results.  Let me tell you the story so far, but before I begin let me just remind you all that I know absolutely nothing about panel beating, and because unfortunately at the moment I work away I am limited with what work I can do with the car myself.  Anyway...

Back in early January I took my car into Greenies panel and paint after getting a few quotes.  Ed (the panel beater) quoted me 10k to sand blast the car, strip it back, take out the rust (there were no dents to speak off in the body), and paint it the original colour, all in around 3 months.  Ed seemed like a good honest bloke, and the price seemed reasonable for the amount of work he said he would do on my car, so I felt confident that he would do a fairly good job.

So anyway after Ciliberti's strip the engine bay, I organised for them to transport my car to Ed, along with some new rubbers/seals/window fittings etc for the car.  So throughout the coming months I take a couple of visits to the shop to check up on things, and also send my dad down whenever I was away working.  Alarm bells started to ring when I had to constantly remind Ed to actually do some work on my car, and that we had an agreed deadline of 3 months (I had already paid him in full - stupid I know).  Another worrying thing was when I found out that he could not weld to save his life, and he was getting someone else to come in and do any welding.  One bit of weld I did see was on the drivers door where there was a significant hole that they were patching up, by using on weld alone to bridge across the gap of the hole (I don't know the correct term, but I'm fairly sure thats not what your meant to do).

4 months later - I had to give him another month - I took a visit to the shop, expecting him to be just putting the finishing touches on the car.  Of course the panel beating was no where near finished, so I give him another few weeks, explaining to him the cost and hassle of me not having any transport and Ciliberti's were waiting on the car as well. 

Finally just last week and after many phone calls, he delivers the car to Ciliberti's, and I'm thinking I'm on the home straight - wrong.  Reno from Ciliberti's calls me while I'm away at work and say's I better get down there and look at the car.  My good mate Ed failed to: attach the bumper on the car correctly, fit the rubbers/seals I provided him (apparently he wasn't sure if I wanted them fitted or not), put the rear window in properly so the rubber seal was badly pinched, do anything to the engine bay at all (it wasnt painted or even stripped), etc, etc. 

At this stage I'm fairly disillusioned with the whole affair, but I just want the car finished, so I pay to transport the car back to Ed, and convince him that work still needs to be done and I want it done asap.  Some of his excuses would have been amusing, if I wasn't out of pocket 10k - 'I didn't know you wanted the engine bay done'; 'You keep on adding to the list of things to do' ('thats because you were meant to do these things in the first place ed'); 'But I don't have a sand blaster' ('Ed you said you were going to sand blast the car, how did you strip the paint off originally?').

After all that my car eventually makes it to the mechanic, this Tuesday just gone, and yes the job done on the engine bay was terrible (Leo at Ciliberti's said I should ask for my money back), and yes I need to take the car back to Ed's after my engine is refitted as there are a few more bits of the car that has not even been touched yet.  But hey the engine does look awesome!

The moral of the story? Don't go to Greenies Panel and Paint? or maybe 10k isn't enough for what I was asking?

In the end though, once I do get my car back in a couple of weeks, I will have a damn nice engine, and I will just have to start saving and get the body properly done in about 5 years :(

Here are some pics of my car in the panel shop anyway.  Don't let the photos fool you, the car does look good in them, but that's just my clever photography...just kidding...if you did see it close up you would notice a lot of things wrong with it.

I feel better now anyway, letting all that off my chest.  Cheers for listening.

On a side note, if you do look carefully at the bottom left hand drivers door, you can notice that the corner juts out and doesn't fit flush at all with the rest of the car.

Oh and I was going to join up with the WA alfa club once my car was back on the road, but as I told Leo at Ciliberti's, I would be too embarrassed joining the club now because of how bad the panel beating job is on my car.  And I did have plans to do the interior of my car, but there is no point if I'm going to have to get the body redone in a few years or so (the floor pan wasn't even touched).

I do need to get my windows retinted though, and I need new shockies.  Can someone recommend a decent place in Perth where I can get buy and get fitted some shockies (or would I be able to fit them myself?).

Do suspension springs need replacing often?

Wow,  I feel for you mate that’s woeful, when I got my car done I had to go down to the panel beaters every Friday after work to make sure something was done each week.  I think 10K is defiantly a reasonable amount and should have expected a professional job for that.  I’d be asking for your money back to, but I doubt you’ll get it.
As far as suspension goes just find your local Koni distributor they’ll be able to sort you out with new shocks and as far as springs go the rears do have a tendency to sag a little, lowering the rear ride height and pointing the nose in the air

Ishamael,
what a drama filled few months for you.  Really sorry for your experience. 
But please dont be embarrassed about joining the WA AROCA chapter and displaying the car.  It is a great place to get advice and hints that may lead you in the right direction - service provider wise plus maybe cheaper, proven options.

We'd love to have to you and love to see the car ... and offer a shoulder to cry on.  It certainly doesnt look that bad at all in the photos and i cvan guarantee it wont be the worst looking one.  Mind you i can fully understand the expected result from a $10k outlay.

Real shame the guy's name is Ed too as there arent many Ed's associated with Alfa stuff in WA so i hope no one thinks it was me!  :o

As for the shockies - get Cileberti or any of the other Alfa specialists that advertise in our WA mag to source and fit them for you or certainly at least fit them (if you arent mechanically strong like me).

Ed(the good one)

Ishamael,

Sad that its so hard to find a good trustworthy panel beater these days. Unfortunately weve gone to an era where most panel beaters dont even repair panels etc anymore ( its cheaper to replace themthan spend the labour straightening them) so its hard to find someone that has had the necessary skills handed down to them.

As for shockies, they are easilly sourced. Im in Perth and would fit them for you over a few beers no probs at all to help out a fellow cash strapped alfa head.

I have a tinter working for me so I could organise the tint at a very good price for you. That also applies to any AROCA members out there who want tint.

Cheers

Meizhak

One other thing, Ican put you in touch with a good panel beater. He is currently doing my neighbours MGB and has done some magic work on the body. He is an older guy with plenty of experience. Dont expect it back in three months though.Hes had the MGB for at least five months.

Email or call me if you want his number or you want to get your shocks or tint done.

Meizhak

Thanks guys for all your support.  And I agree Colin, there is no chance of getting my money back, that's why I'm pretty philosophical about it all.

I get my car back in two weeks Ed, and thats when I will get my tinting and shockies done, so I will join up to the alfa club after that - I just won't let anyone look to closely at the body ;)

Meizhak you will be receiving an email from me in about 1 and a half weeks for help with the tinting and shockies, if you don't mind and presuming i save up enough money from now till then.

Thanks again guys :)

Hi ,

In light of the terrible experience Ishmael has just experienced I am now having second thoughts about restoring my 1750, 105.   :'(
Can I just ask what was involved for $10k as that is one bucket load of hard earned to be handing over.

My plan was to remove all interior / exterior , engine, glass, bright work etc and then “hand” the bare rolling shell over to a paint stripper (sand or soda blasting) then a panel beater for repairs and painting. I had thought this would be well south of $10k depending on the condition of the body under the layers of paint.

Then the trick would be to put all the parts back where they came from myself, with a little help from friends and family over a few months and several beers.  Although they are not aware of this yet!

In others experience/s what sort of $’s should you expect to fork out, ball park figure??  ???

I am not expecting a concourse car, just a neat & tidy example of what is a wonderful car that is fast approaching 40 years of age.

thanks

Hi , i feel sorry for you and the car . Its a shame there are crooks in the industry .Anyway i think you have a few options !1st  talk to him and explain your disappointment with the finished product , perhaps he will repair the work that needs doing . 2 tell him you have spoken to a solicitor and will be instigating legal proceedings if a result cannot be achieved , i suggest a 50% refund , if you have too send him a letter of demand. 3 if he doesnt want to play ball , tell him you will file with small claims tribunal , and the tax department for undeclared income 10,000$ . You,d be suprised what happens when you mention the tax department !!! anyway good luck . ps if you don,t stop this , he,ll do it again to some one else

Ash,
the solution is finding some 'experienced' with Alfa Romeo restoration and proven by club members who have used them, not just someone in the trade.
You are lucky as there are several members in Victoria with work already done, thus can give good reccomendations for business like Rankins restorastions.

Then it comes down to budget and how much preparation you can do.  Take the car to an Alfa specialist and go thru what you want done with them.
I'll leave the other AROCA Vic members ot make suitable reccomendations of business you should approach.

Not that i have done it but plenty have and a "ballpark" figure is almost impossible to give as each car's level of condition will be different but surely anywhere from a few $ to many $10's of 000s depending on what needs to be done and to what level of reuslt you want.
 

Just some advice for Ash, I think your should go with it as there are plenty of reputable Alfa repairers in the Melbourne area and these cars are absolute classics that aren't getting any cheaper.
I wonder what qualifies you to think 'south of 10K' is going to do your job? The hours and hours involved in panel repairs/rust repairs plus the cost of painting in modern two pack paints can (sometimes) run to twice what you are thinking. And that is usually at an hourly rate much less than you and I are probably earning. Everybody says 'but I am not looking for a concourse job'....but how do you think a repairer is supposed to react to that?  Do half a job? leave it a bit rough? leave half the rust? use excessive bog? You see the real people that should be entrusted to do your job is the guy that IS trying to do a concourse job. In the end that is the only standard that you will be happy with and the finish that you will be proud to show your friends. Like others have written above it is important to have a trusted repairer, one who you can visit regularly and one who you can confidently discuss your desires wishes and budget. Also I would recommend progress payment to soften the final blow and to keep the repairer motivated. Good luck with your decision.

Please don't let my bad experience put you off restoring your alfa Ash.  If anything learn from my mistakes.

I should never had gone to someone who wasn't recommended to me, but at that stage no one I knew, could recommend me a reputable panel beater/restorer.  I also made the mistake of paying up front, which was not really my choice, but because I had the panel beating financed, my bank wanted a quote and paid the amount in full in a bank cheque.

Thanks for the advice Mick, I have told him (the panel beater) of my disappointment with the delays and work that has not been done.  I am very reluctant to take it any further as I hate any sort of confrontation.

I have requested that he finish the work that he was suppose to do, but my fear is that he will do the same quality job as he has done with the rest of the car, and that means that it would probably be better that he doesnt touch it.

Meizhak has kindly offered to help find someone to do the tinting, and the shockies, so I might have the opportunity to meet up with him when I'm in Perth next (with a slab of beer of course :)), and let him look over the car and see what he thinks.

Keep you posted.

ash
there is a panel shop in bendigo called continental body restorations they deal mostly with alfas they r very well priced and if you are not in a rush they will bring the price down abit you can call them on 0354478692 they will do from bear shell to touch ups. let me know if you want to give them a call and i will have a word to them

Thanks for all the tips & the honest feedback.

Ishmael I was just wondering in what state your car was when you gave it to the repairer?  Any pre repair pics?
What prep work were you able to do yourself etc?

I have only had a few cars as I lived O/S for several years, but in my experience a great result can be achieved if you put in the hours yourself on some prep work as Ed suggested and leave the repairer to do what he does best.

Unfortunately not many of us the spare time we would all like, and currently that’s why my Alfa is still sits idle, covered and waiting till I have the time and $ .

Just a little background – The 69 Alfa is the 4th car I have owned, following on from two Datsun 1600s and Subaru 1800 sportswagon. My first car, A humble Subaru sportswagon, was purchased from Fowles as an accident write off. $2k for the car.  We removed the engine & gearbox, removed the damaged panels and cut away the mangled front end. A trip to several wreckers and we had a replacement hood, front end and left qrt panel, radiator and found a set of superlights I hadn't expected to purchase.  Anyhow after negotiations with the panel beater to spray and blend the panels & fit the front end cost me bang on $2k, including most of the the parts. Superlights were an unexpected expense! The job was then up to me to put the panels on and refit the wiring loom, lights etc then engine and gearbox again. I ended up with a sweet looking car for around $4k, that I was proud to show off to my mates! Plus there is huge satisfaction once the job is complete, knowing how much work you and your mates have put in.

Unfortunately this repairer has moved on, so will be looking for another equally as good and trusted repairer in the Moorabbin area.

Mind you it's was not an alfa and parts if required may take me longer to source, but these days we have Ebay and what not, so it shouldn’t be too hard, it will just require some patience. 

I have no firm idea on costs, it's all a stab in the dark at the moment, hence the post asking. Who knows what it will all tally to, I will keep you up to date when the project starts.

Once again thanks for all your feedback, & Ishmael, all the best with your resto and keep to pictures and updates coming!

I'm not sure if I have an old picture floating around, I will have a look when I am back home next.

The body had no dents or major dings, just rust was the main problem.  The usual rust spots you find on an old 105 - near the wheel arches, door, boot (I bought a good condition second boot lid to save him doing any work on the old one), etc.

I was not able to do any work myself, mainly because I work away from home, and besides that I would not know where to start when it comes to doing any body work.

On another note, I have decided to see if I can possibly get back a partial refund from this guy, after talking to all you guys and some people at work...keep you posted.

Ok using some advice you guys have given me, I have been to the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection website.

I have downloaded their complaint form.  They recommend that I try resolve this amicably with the Ed (the bad one) first of all, which I will do tomorrow.

I have also emailed the Motor Trade Association of WA (MTAWA) this email:

To whom it may concern,

I was given your email address from the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection website.  They recommended that you may be able to advise me on the best way to handle a dispute I have with a local panel beater with whom I paid to perform some work on my vehicle.

Essentially I paid 10k for this panel beater to perform some restoration work on my old alfa romeo car.  After many delays, and with some of the work not being done at all, I was told by my mechanic and other people more knowledgeable in panel beating than I am, that the work done was very sub-standard (bog used when I specifically asked for new metal to be welded in; old paint that was never sand-blasted away, etc, etc).

So essentially I am hoping that you are at least able to provide me with a list of reputable panel beaters with whom I can take my car so that they can give their professional opinion on the work performed thus far.

Thanks in advice,

Ben Sims.

I will then call up Ed and tell him about my disappointment with his work, and tell him about my planned course of action(s) and see what reply he has to that.

I will refuse him doing any further work on my car, as that would be a further waste of time, as his work is completely unsatisfactory anyway.

What do you guys think? Should I get in touch with anyone else?

I think even if I get a part refund I will happy with that.

It sounds like a plan, but my experience in dealing with Consumer Affairs or Small Claims Tribunal etc, is that they will always like you to give the repairer the opportunity to right his wrong. Unless you are completely at logger heads with the repairer this may still be your better outcome, even though it sound like you have no confidence in the repairer hence your idea to get some money back. Of course he might refuse that, so that is why I would be trying to appeal to his better nature as a repairer to help you out. From a repairers point of view it wouldn't do his business any good to have bad mouthing customers, so there SHOULD be a common goal for him to try again for you. But I don't know him like you do I guess. If you are short on technical knowledge with regards to these types of repairs, it would maybe be better to visit him with someone that knows what they are talking about. This is what being a AROCA member is all about.

Definitely I agree.

The main reason why I am pushing for a part refund is because his work was that bad to begin with, so basically he doesn't have the skill nor the tools to do the work I have paid him for.

Also I have been without a car for almost 5 months now, I don't have the money nor the patience to send the car back into him with the chance of receiving a nightmare job again.

I did speak to his partner today (Ed is on holidays - probably with my money) and I explained the situation.  He was very quick to distance himself from Ed and his work, and without saying the job Ed done was atrocius, he insinuated as much.

I was very polite throughout the conversation, but made it clear that unless Ed came to the party and offered some compensation I will take it further, and do everything I can to get as much money back as I could.

I also got his partner onside, explaining that this is his lively hood at stake, and that it would be in everyones interest if Ed settled this without me taking it further.

I should receive a reply by Monday.  Keep your fingers crossed for me :)

Just an update on this situation if anyone's interested.

I received a call today from Ed (the panel beater).  He was quick to agree to a 50 percent payout (5k), which I am pleased about.

One wonders though why he was so quick to agree, as it is a huge turn about face from a few weeks ago, when he was asking for more money.

I have given him a two week deadline anyway to cough up the money, so we will see...

Well done Ishamael.

It was probably a nervous thing to do but well worth the effort.  Certainly i was always taught to try and remain pleasant and unheated and the result is usually better. Your case shows this yet again.

Now what, do you need a Perth based recommendation to complete the work or are you going to leave that for now and just get it back on the road?

Well the engine is pretty much finished and has been put back into the engine bay.

My plans are to get the tinting and shockies done, and maybe some new rims.  The interior I won't touch besides replacing a few knobs and buttons, and the door panels.  I would rather leave the bulk of the interior until the body is properly restored.

I'm starting my new job in two weeks time, so I will need the wheels for a while.  The next time I get the body done, I'm going the whole hog, in terms of giving it plenty of time (I will buy a cheap little car to drive in the meantime), and not going for the cheapest option.

I have just filled out the application form for AROCA (W.A. division) membership, so what I will do is hopefully turn up to the annual dinner, and let you look over it Ed and see what you think.

Ok things have taken a turn for the worse.  If anyones interested here is the end snippet of my complaint that I am about to lodge with the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection:

I take my mechanics advice and read up about making a claim on the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection website.  Using the information from the website I called Greenies Panel and Paint on Thursday 29th May.  Edward Lammle’s business partner, Han’s advises me that Ed is on holidays with his wife.  I explain to Han’s the situation and try and resolve the matter without having to lodge a complaint form.  He distances himself from Ed and his work, and agrees that resolving this matter without lodging a complaint would be for the best.  He promises to get in touch with Ed.

Edward Lammle then contacts me the next day (Friday 30th May).   After expressing my disappointment in the poor quality work and the amount of hassles I have had with getting him to fulfil his part of our agreement, he agrees to refund me 50 percent of the original cost - $5000.  I give him a week to pay the amount.

A week later (Friday 6th May) after not hearing anything from Ed, I call his panel beating shop.  Ed explains that he does not have the money, but he does have a Jaguar car that he can give me.  He explains that the car is worth at least $6000.  My reply is that I know nothing about Jaguar cars and their value, and why should I go to the trouble of selling his car to retrieve a refund we had agreed upon. 

Edward then explains that his business is going through hard times, and that he would have to sell one of his two houses (he has one in Mt Lawley, and one in Kellerberrin) to pay me the money owed.  I explain that I understand financial difficulties, as I am currently having trouble paying for further repair work being done to my because of his poor work, and I had to take out a personal loan to pay him initially.  In the end I gave him another week to pay the $5000, he agrees.

Finally on the Tuesday 10th May, Leo from Cileberti’s calls and explains that he cannot refit my engine at all because of the lack of rust repair done to the engine bay – it is impossible for him to attach the engine safely because the rust was not fixed.  I request that Leo get his panel beater in to quote on how much it would cost to fix the engine bay (I was away for work, and I could not trust Edward Lammle to fix his work – again).  The quote was for $1200.

I then call Edward Lammle to advise him of this additional cost to myself, and to find out if he is any closer to being able to pay me my refund so I can pay for this work.  He then reneges on our agreement, and says that he is only willing to pay me $2000.  I refuse this amount and advise him that I will be lodging a complaint form with the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection.

It also should be noted that:
-   A number of times throughout February, March, April, and May Edward Lammle asked for an extra $1000 dollars to be paid.  When asked why, he said he needed it for the GST.  I refused and explained that the original quote included the GST.

-   In our last phone conversation on the 10th May, initially Edward Lammle denied bogging up any part of my car.  But when I pointed out that it can be clearly seen that he has used bog, he admitted that with most of the rust work he did, he just bogged it up, which was not part of our original agreement.

-   On the Friday 30th May I requested that Edward Lammle provide me with a receipt for the welding work performed on my car.  Edward replied that he paid cash in hand, and that there was no receipt.  At a later date he said that he has a receipt for the welding work.

-   When asked if he was a licensed repairer of motor vehicles, Edward Lammle replied that he was not currently licensed, nor was his son who carried out a large portion of the work on my vehicle.

So again there looks to be another week or two before I get my car, maybe longer as I don't have the money to pay for the rust work required to get my engine put back in.

Anyway on a good note, I have sent Edward Hellsten my application for AROCA WA, and Mesheik has been awesome in helping me out source a tinter and some conies :)

Sorry to hear the saga continues but it looks like you really do need to continue down your path to it's conclusion even if it takes longer.

anything you need, any help we can offer let us know, maybe a working bee over a pizza and an beer or 2 id need be.

Ed(the good one!)

I would engage a solicitor to have a look at this.  Its getting quite complicated now that he is unlicenced.  This could cause further complications which you clearly dont need.

Really depends how far you want to take this.  Its a fairly straight forward case of not being provided the work you have paid for.  Rectification could be difficult though especially if he cannot compensate you by way of refund or repair.

If that is actually the case it will be complex and your only option will be to take it to court.

I would spend the $200 and go to a solicitor and find out what your options are for compensation.  Sounds like you have given him adequate opportunity to rectify the issue and he has failed to do so.

Be prepared though that even if you take it to court and a judgement is made in your favour, you may still never see a penny.  Granted that is worst case but prepare yourself regardless.

Hi all

I am new to this forum, my first posting but a long term Alfa owner (past 20 +) years. I can feel for the likes of Ish and Ash re the topic of how much should you pay for a decent bodywork restoration, let alone the frustration when the quality doesnt match your expectations, and the cost seemed reasonable, at the time. However, when in your case Ish the crook covered up rust with bog that is not on !!  Especially if there are issues re the safety of your car, like engine or suspension mounting points.   So good on you for taking action against him.  He deserves all that comes his way.  Hope you get some money back so that you can have it repaired properly.

Having already restored both a few classic Fiats and Alfas over the years i also agree with some of the other sentiments posted re what you should always aim for. Since this in essance is the only way to explain to the restorer what your expectations are and therefore an indication of what you expect in return for your hard earned $$$. I have tried this approach in the past with mixed experience.  With a professional at least you have a chance.  With a backyarder, well good luck.  This regrettably was my experience with my current Giulia Super, I am restoring.  I stopped counting precisely what it cost to get the bodywork done and I will have to strip it all back and start again.  The only good thing I think is that at least the rust was cut out and replaced with new metal.  How well and how much bog he used I don't know yet.  I suspect though I roughly have lost $5-7,000.  Ouch, but my mistake since I didn't go to a professional with history or watched over the project more closely.  At least the leather interior and the gearbox etc have been correctly done.  The biggest problem over here in Tas is that professional bodyworks are not interested in restoration work. I have heard of a couple of specialists but am yet to follow up on the leads. I still have my 1750 GTV to restore yet.  $10K these days from my experience seems pretty reasonable.  I have heard for instance of costs as high as double that. At least my 156 sporwagon is perfect.  Cheers Dave

Hi Dave,

Just a left field thought, but have you considered getting the work done in Melbourne (or another state)?  There are some brilliant restoration places here, and the occasional cheap air fare to Melb for updates (along with regular emailed photos etc) might be worth the extra couple of bucks knowing that the Giulia Super is in the capable hands of someone who knows these cars. ???

Hi Phil

Yes I have given some thought about that as a real option and may need to take it up, especially if I am unable to get someone to do what is needed here.  My brother in law had a 1750 GTV and ended up selling it as a project to someone else since he too couldn't find a panel shop willing to take it on. 

If I can find someone here to take on the projects I will thoroughly check out the work first and get firm quotes on the likely cost.  The last thing I want to experience again is shoddy work and unrealistic quotes. That in essance is what occurred first time around with the Super. 

I reckon someone like Rankin Panels or perhaps the 105 Factory would be both good options.  Does anyone have other suggestions re in Melbourne, since I would need to ship the Super across the Bass Straight, so other States probably would be too expensive re transport costs.  Must figure on how to upload photos of the collection.

Cheers
Dave

I could really recommend Sams panels in Clayton Melbourne. He is member of both AROCA Vic & Fiat car club. Sam did some work on my 105 a couple of years ago which was both of an execellent quality and resonable price.

He is currently doing up a Series 1 1750  GTV 105 that is going to be sensational when finished. There is a very detailed thread to this on Alfa Bulletin Board. Here's the link.


 http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1965-1974/44494-1969-gtv-1750-restoration-18.html   

Cheers


Paul

Bump

For what this kind of restoration is going to cost this is a very viable alternative

http://www.carpoint.com.au/used-car/ALFA%20ROMEO/1750/Victoria/csn5859896.aspx

See threadss today on this page

Dave just as another recomendation there is Fitzroy Motor Body Repairs in Melbourne 03 9417 6527 seem to be very reasonable and deliver work on all levels (from minor repairs to full restoration)

Will speak to them re my 105 soon and ill give you some feedback on how that goes
cheers
Pep 

Guys, it is really important that your choice of repairer knows Alfa's.  Yes there are good panel beaters/painters/repairers etc around, but unless they know Alfa's and their idiosyncrasies you stand a better chance of ending up with a less than satisfactory job (as Ishamael can relate to).

Check out our sponsor’s page, these guys have worked with Alfa's for a long time and already have a proven track record.

Hi Phil and Pep. 

Thanks guys for the most helpful advice.  I agree totally with comments re most panel shops, however, reasonable they may even be, not having a clue as to the idisyncracities of old Alfa's, or even old cars full stop. 

This is in part why my resto of the Giulia Super has temporarily stopped, until I can find someone I am happy with and trust.  I have spent far too much money to date on the project to then accept 2nd or worse best.  I want the body work to be spot on as is the interior. The quality of the restoration of the seats in full conolly leather is perfect.  Ditto the gearbox rebuild, as will be the engine and other mechanicals. 

I will have a good look at the sponsors page, as I am aware of Sam's work and have definitely heard of Rankins and the 105 factory.  Pep, yes if you can keep me posted that would be great.  Thanks all and heres to more 105s etc being properly restored.  Dave